We Have Been Betrayed

[megan_]

Shouldn't the only dogs that are docked these days be imports?

yes the should - unless people aren't complying with the law.

[Wundahoo]

Megan,

It is NOT illegal to dock dogs in this country for theraputic purposes. Therefore it is possible for dogs bred in this country to have a docked tail, either done as a neonate or as an adult and for the procedure to comply with the law.

Please be aware of the FACT !!!

Edit for spelling.

Edited February 4, 2013 by Wundahoo

[Sheridan]

Breeders don't import purely for show, neither do many actually travel to personally choose their puppy.

They import primarily for breeding purposes & rely on the honesty & integrity of the breeders.

If showing is a requisite they need only to request an undocked puppy & keep their fingers crossed the same as they do for a docked puppy.

IMO your argument is very weak & lacks credibility as a valid argument to overturn the tail docking laws, as does the dog will hurt it's tail claim.

I am more concerned about the loss of popularity of some of the previously docked breeds & fear they face virtual extinction because a the ridiculous law foisted upon us by people who don't even like dogs.

True breeders don't import for show only but you would find very few dogs imported that are not used in some form of competition to prove thier value. Why would you spend thousands of dollars to bring a dog in and then not use them in competition to assess their value and to allow others to see the potential the new bloodlines could add to the dog.

I know a number of breeders who don't show. They're great breeders, they produce beautiful dogs. Believe it or not, some breeders are able to assess a dog's value to their breeding program without trotting the dog around a show ring.

[Sheridan]

Megan,

It is NOT illegal to dock dogs in this country for theraputic purposes. Therefore it is possible for dogs bred in this country to have a docked tail, either done as a neonate or as an adult and for the procedure to comply with the law.

Please be aware of the FACT !!!

Edit for spelling.

There's theraputic and then there's snipping a bit of the dog's tail off to get a better set in the show ring, which is what the motion is about.

[cruzzi]

Why can't people just accept that it is not legal to chop portions of the tail off healthy dogs, or any other body part. Guess it would be hard to prove if someone deliberately broke or injured a tail. One could assume if it was a regular occurrence but if this is enough to prosecute I don't know ?

If people want to show imports from other countries they have to choose a puppy & say do not dock the tail. Its not complicated.

If they already have a dog here that is docked they can still breed from it but not show.

There are actually far more stupid & unfair rules in the dog world than this.

Some people are very sick & will do all sorts of awful things so it may be true that this has happened. If it is only once it is one time too many.

Thanks for the learned advice Christina.

Is that a serious reply or sarcasm? Overseas breeders dock a few days after birth. When did you last select your show dog at less than 1 week of age?

Those that import make application for a puppy from their selected breeder before the litter is even conceived.

Any wonder topics wander from the topic.

Yes application may be made but final decision on which particular pup is made well after whelping. And not many breeders would put off docking a litter of pups to allow you to choose one then run the risk of having to get rid of the rest of the litter with tails when other breeders in that country can provide docked.

As an example we had a litter of pups here shortly after the docking laws came in. You would be amazed at the number of people that asked "oh they're not docked?" "No we are not allowed to dock them anymore." "Oh but I wanted one that was docked."

Breeders don't import purely for show, neither do many actually travel to personally choose their puppy.

They import primarily for breeding purposes & rely on the honesty & integrity of the breeders.

If showing is a requisite they need only to request an undocked puppy & keep their fingers crossed the same as they do for a docked puppy.

IMO your argument is very weak & lacks credibility as a valid argument to overturn the tail docking laws, as does the dog will hurt it's tail claim.

I am more concerned about the loss of popularity of some of the previously docked breeds & fear they face virtual extinction because a the ridiculous law foisted upon us by people who don't even like dogs.

True breeders don't import for show only but you would find very few dogs imported that are not used in some form of competition to prove thier value. Why would you spend thousands of dollars to bring a dog in and then not use them in competition to assess their value and to allow others to see the potential the new bloodlines could add to the dog.

Who said anything about a valid argument for overturning docking laws. You can forget that ever happening. My point is as follows:

If I were a breeder in the US or Canada or Asia and I had a litter of ten pups born today with the possibility of one of those ten going to Australia. Now at two or three days of age it would be impossible to determine which pup is a likely prospect to send. So I have a dilemma.

1. Do I not dock the entire litter and therefore run the risk of being stuck with nine pups that have full tails yet demand in my country is for docked dogs. I may not find homes for them for this reason. Remembering that some states in USA and Canada do have limits on number of dogs to be kept.(have had experience in this from when NSW bought in Docking laws but other states had not)

2. Do I dock the entire litter and say to the potential Australian buyer "Bad luck you can still get the dog but you won't be able to show it to prove its value and thus by not being in the ring other breeders will not see the benefit of this new bloodline".

3. Do I leave one pup undocked and hope it turns out worthy of the buyers money they are putting in to importing it. Bearing in mind if they get the dog and it is not a good example for whatever reason my reputation as a breeder is at risk.

4. Choose a pup too leave undocked and then later have the intended purchaser pull out of the deal and I am then left with a dog that may be difficult to find a home for as all other breeders in my country are offering docked dogs which Joe Public thinks is right for the breed.

In this situation as a breeder in a country that allowed docking I would probably go down the path of option 2. This as the breeder would be the safest and less stressful way. However that is not the answer the people wanting to imort would want to hear.

I too am concerned about the future of previously docked breeds as I happen to breed/train and exhibit such a breed.

However I am also in the process of importing another breed to add to our pack and after a few emails with potential breeders in certain countries that we have been in discussion with for over three years, the above are some of the concerns these breeders are having should this ruling come into being.

Also it needs to be considered how would the ANKC prevent a dog from being exhibited. If the rules developed out of this motion require all dogs banned by this motion put on a limited register then there goes the possibility of even using the dog to breed with. So again a good opportunity to expand the gene pool is lost.

Knowledgable breeders are more interested in what is behind the puppy than the actual puppy per se.

You don't pay for the puppy you pay for it's breeding.

It is the proven lines behind the breeding that would attract the interest of other breeders if all you are importing for is make a buck.

If a dog is imported from a "main" register overseas why would it have to be limited registered here?

Cropped dogs aren't. They can't be exhibited at sanctioned shows is all.

But their uncropped progeny can.

I have you have been negotiating for 3 years surely you would know by now if you want the breeding or not.

If you are genuine, pay the bucks, stipulate not to be docked & get on with it instead of making mountains out of molehills.

[FHRP]

Megan,

It is NOT illegal to dock dogs in this country for theraputic purposes. Therefore it is possible for dogs bred in this country to have a docked tail, either done as a neonate or as an adult and for the procedure to comply with the law.

Please be aware of the FACT !!!

Edit for spelling.

There's theraputic and then there's snipping a bit of the dog's tail off to get a better set in the show ring, which is what the motion is about.

It may be what it's about, but it will affect both. There are already laws to prevent "snipping a bit of the dog's tail off to get a better set in the show ring", lets have them enforced! By passing this motion, dogs that have had their tails amputated for theraputic reasons will not be able to be exhibited in any ANKC event, not just showing. I can trial a dog in agility, obedinece etc. that has one eye or one ear or three legs, but wouldn't be able to trial a dog with a shortened tail, done for legitimate reasons! What a joke.

[Wundahoo]

Megan,

It is NOT illegal to dock dogs in this country for theraputic purposes. Therefore it is possible for dogs bred in this country to have a docked tail, either done as a neonate or as an adult and for the procedure to comply with the law.

Please be aware of the FACT !!!

Edit for spelling.

There's theraputic and then there's snipping a bit of the dog's tail off to get a better set in the show ring, which is what the motion is about.

I'm sorry Sheridan but nowhere in this motion do I see a reference to that. It states quite clearly and categorically "a motion that any dog whelped on or after I July 2014 is ineligible for exhibition at ANKC approved events if the tail of the dog has been docked". This motion encompasses far more than just the show ring. It is a proposed ban for all ANKC events. The show ring is the only area where there could possibly be an advantage obtained by docking...... if the motion was truly about that, then it would refer only to the show ring.

You and Megan have made statements pertaining to the legality (or otherwise) of docking in this country which have been inaccurate and cast aspersions on those who have been forced to dock tails for theraputic and humane reasons.

Tail docking is still legal in Australia under certain circumstances.

Please get it right.

Please get over it and accept it.

Please ensure that when you make statements (or ask a rhetorical question) that you have facts.

If you have proof, genuine and irrefutable, that someone has deliberately damaged tails in order to obtain a docking procedure then offer that proof. If not, then it's just rumour and inuendo, hearsay and scuttlebut.

It's wrong that we should be governed by rules based on gossip rather than on hard evidence.

[oakway]

The laws are in and chances of them ever being overturned are remote - the issue is not the law its the bloody rednecks in the ANKC who want to bring in regs which outlaw more than the laws do.The fact that the law which treats people who get a dog legally docked somewhere else by a qualified vet as criminals if it isnt done in their state if they take it to a dog show is unbelievable already without this.It has huge potential ramifications.

Could this contravene the Trade Practices act or the freedom of trade between countries. ?

No you can still trade with them and haven't been restricted in that - you can also exercise your property rights and take your dog to another state or country and have a vet legally dock its tail - but if you then take it to a dog show you are guilty of a criminal act in Victoria - even though you have not committed any act of cruelty and it was done by a vet and as it is your property you have every right to take it to another place for vet treatment.

Thank you, I was praying that was not the case. Buggar.

[Sheridan]

Megan,

It is NOT illegal to dock dogs in this country for theraputic purposes. Therefore it is possible for dogs bred in this country to have a docked tail, either done as a neonate or as an adult and for the procedure to comply with the law.

Please be aware of the FACT !!!

Edit for spelling.

There's theraputic and then there's snipping a bit of the dog's tail off to get a better set in the show ring, which is what the motion is about.

I'm sorry Sheridan but nowhere in this motion do I see a reference to that. It states quite clearly and categorically "a motion that any dog whelped on or after I July 2014 is ineligible for exhibition at ANKC approved events if the tail of the dog has been docked". This motion encompasses far more than just the show ring. It is a proposed ban for all ANKC events. The show ring is the only area where there could possibly be an advantage obtained by docking...... if the motion was truly about that, then it would refer only to the show ring.

You and Megan have made statements pertaining to the legality (or otherwise) of docking in this country which have been inaccurate and cast aspersions on those who have been forced to dock tails for theraputic and humane reasons.

Tail docking is still legal in Australia under certain circumstances.

Please get it right.

Please get over it and accept it.

Please ensure that when you make statements (or ask a rhetorical question) that you have facts.

If you have proof, genuine and irrefutable, that someone has deliberately damaged tails in order to obtain a docking procedure then offer that proof. If not, then it's just rumour and inuendo, hearsay and scuttlebut.

It's wrong that we should be governed by rules based on gossip rather than on hard evidence.

I have said tail docking is illegal, which it is. I have cited the motion, which states 'a significant number of docked dogs continue to be shown in all classes' and that people are deliberately damaging tails. If that is not to get a better tail set for showing, why would someone do that? I have, by the way, since you're incapable of reading, said evidence of this should be presented. I haven't cast aspersions on people who have to get tails docked for theraputic purposes. You want to make up crap then go try someone else who might fall for it.

Go away.

[oakway]

Sheridan it would be highly unlikely that a dog would be illigally docked to get a better tail set.

Tail set they are born with.

Docking only shortens it.

If it is a bad tail set it would not necessarily get any better by docking it.

I do not own a docked breed but I do know that if one of mine is born with a bad tail set the tail would not improve by shortening it. :)

[Rebanne]

Megan,

It is NOT illegal to dock dogs in this country for theraputic purposes. Therefore it is possible for dogs bred in this country to have a docked tail, either done as a neonate or as an adult and for the procedure to comply with the law.

Please be aware of the FACT !!!

Edit for spelling.

There's theraputic and then there's snipping a bit of the dog's tail off to get a better set in the show ring, which is what the motion is about.

that is not what the motion is about. It is about restricting what a person can do with a dog legally purchased and imported from another country. It is not illegal to own a docked dog in this country.

[cruzzi]

Sheridan it would be highly unlikely that a dog would be illigally docked to get a better tail set.

Tail set they are born with.

Docking only shortens it.

If it is a bad tail set it would not necessarily get any better by docking it.

I do not own a docked breed but I do know that if one of mine is born with a bad tail set the tail would not improve by shortening it. :)

Substitute carriage for set.

But I think you probably realised that.

[Sheridan]

Megan,

It is NOT illegal to dock dogs in this country for theraputic purposes. Therefore it is possible for dogs bred in this country to have a docked tail, either done as a neonate or as an adult and for the procedure to comply with the law.

Please be aware of the FACT !!!

Edit for spelling.

There's theraputic and then there's snipping a bit of the dog's tail off to get a better set in the show ring, which is what the motion is about.

that is not what the motion is about. It is about restricting what a person can do with a dog legally purchased and imported from another country. It is not illegal to own a docked dog in this country.

I haven't said it was. Every dog I have had has been docked. I said it was illegal to dock and yes, acknowledging that some dogs damage their tails and have to be docked for 'theraputic' purposes. Docking is otherwise illegal, is it not? Or are there other loopholes being exploited?

It's very clear that given the connection between the statement in the motion that 'significant numbers' of docked dogs are being shown, the person bringing the motion believes there is a connection between all these broken tails, etc, that he's heard about, and the show ring.

[cruzzi]

The ANKC has the only game in town.

If you want to play, you have to play by their rules.

However, rules can be amended.

At the next elections vote out those support this proposal & vote in those that don't.

[Steve]

I know a number of breeders who don't show. They're great breeders, they produce beautiful dogs. Believe it or not, some breeders are able to assess a dog's value to their breeding program without trotting the dog around a show ring.

Sheridan as you know I agree with this but everything about the ANKC pushes people to show their dogs to be able to properly assess their breeding potential. Most people who show believe this as well and whether I think they are mistaken and its possible to assess the dog without the need of showing them isn't the point - this is about taking the right for them to show their dogs even if the dogs are docked according to all laws - here or elsewhere. It means a withdrawal of any dog docked here as well as over seas from competition. It means every person who owns a dog with a docked tail is assumed to be a person who deliberately commits acts of extreme cruelty and in case someone somewhere might deliberately break a tail everyone needs to be punished.

It reminds me of the whole debarking thing - that was all bought into law because of an accusation that breeders stick a pipe down a dog's throat and hit it with a hammer. Not one single case has ever been shown to have happened but just in case every person who needs to have a dog debarked has to run the gauntlet and cant just make a choice that they think is best for their dog.

[Steve]

[

Knowledgable breeders are more interested in what is behind the puppy than the actual puppy per se.

You don't pay for the puppy you pay for it's breeding.

It is the proven lines behind the breeding that would attract the interest of other breeders if all you are importing for is make a buck.

If a dog is imported from a "main" register overseas why would it have to be limited registered here?

Cropped dogs aren't. They can't be exhibited at sanctioned shows is all.

But their uncropped progeny can.

I have you have been negotiating for 3 years surely you would know by now if you want the breeding or not.

If you are genuine, pay the bucks, stipulate not to be docked & get on with it instead of making mountains out of molehills.

Many dogs are registered on main overseas and can only go on limited - including non recognised colours etc.

How do you think they will limit which dogs can be shown if they dont put all docked dogs on limited register?

[Sheridan]

I know a number of breeders who don't show. They're great breeders, they produce beautiful dogs. Believe it or not, some breeders are able to assess a dog's value to their breeding program without trotting the dog around a show ring.

Sheridan as you know I agree with this but everything about the ANKC pushes people to show their dogs to be able to properly assess their breeding potential. Most people who show believe this as well and whether I think they are mistaken and its possible to assess the dog without the need of showing them isn't the point - this is about taking the right for them to show their dogs even if the dogs are docked according to all laws - here or elsewhere. It means a withdrawal of any dog docked here as well as over seas from competition. It means every person who owns a dog with a docked tail is assumed to be a person who deliberately commits acts of extreme cruelty and in case someone somewhere might deliberately break a tail everyone needs to be punished.

It reminds me of the whole debarking thing - that was all bought into law because of an accusation that breeders stick a pipe down a dog's throat and hit it with a hammer. Not one single case has ever been shown to have happened but just in case every person who needs to have a dog debarked has to run the gauntlet and cant just make a choice that they think is best for their dog.

I'm haven't disagreed with that, Steve, despite certain people in the thread getting all het up about it.

[cruzzi]

[

Knowledgable breeders are more interested in what is behind the puppy than the actual puppy per se.

You don't pay for the puppy you pay for it's breeding.

It is the proven lines behind the breeding that would attract the interest of other breeders if all you are importing for is make a buck.

If a dog is imported from a "main" register overseas why would it have to be limited registered here?

Cropped dogs aren't. They can't be exhibited at sanctioned shows is all.

But their uncropped progeny can.

I have you have been negotiating for 3 years surely you would know by now if you want the breeding or not.

If you are genuine, pay the bucks, stipulate not to be docked & get on with it instead of making mountains out of molehills.

Many dogs are registered on main overseas and can only go on limited - including non recognised colours etc.

How do you think they will limit which dogs can be shown if they dont put all docked dogs on limited register?

Easy,

The steward disqualities them at the gate.

However their progency shouldn't, & don't, suffer for the sins of their progenitors.

You don't really think every cropped import is automatically placed on the limited register do you?

They are imported for their bloodlines with no attempt to enter them in a show.

There are cropped imports listed in the the D.O.L breed profiles as available for stud duties.

Bitches whelp whole puppies (most of the time) & this proposal is to ensure they remain whole if they are to be part of the ANKC show scene.

Any breeder who imports a dog from mismarked parents or those of highly undesirable colours would be stupid wouldn't they?

Locally bred puppies with mismarks or colours are placed on the limited register anyhow, so what's the difference?

While I don't agree with the law, there are still quite a few docked exhibits in the rings & I imagine this proposal is a one size fits all solution to cut thru the bullshit.

"No docked exhibits will be allowed to be exhibited at ANKC sanctioned shows....end of game"

So just as any dog which suffers a malady & has to be neutered for any reason is ineligle to compete in the real section of a dog show, so will any which need their tails docked for any reason.

[Steve]

I know a number of breeders who don't show. They're great breeders, they produce beautiful dogs. Believe it or not, some breeders are able to assess a dog's value to their breeding program without trotting the dog around a show ring.

Sheridan as you know I agree with this but everything about the ANKC pushes people to show their dogs to be able to properly assess their breeding potential. Most people who show believe this as well and whether I think they are mistaken and its possible to assess the dog without the need of showing them isn't the point - this is about taking the right for them to show their dogs even if the dogs are docked according to all laws - here or elsewhere. It means a withdrawal of any dog docked here as well as over seas from competition. It means every person who owns a dog with a docked tail is assumed to be a person who deliberately commits acts of extreme cruelty and in case someone somewhere might deliberately break a tail everyone needs to be punished.

It reminds me of the whole debarking thing - that was all bought into law because of an accusation that breeders stick a pipe down a dog's throat and hit it with a hammer. Not one single case has ever been shown to have happened but just in case every person who needs to have a dog debarked has to run the gauntlet and cant just make a choice that they think is best for their dog.

I'm haven't disagreed with that, Steve, despite certain people in the thread getting all het up about it.

Yeah I know.

[Steve]

[

Knowledgable breeders are more interested in what is behind the puppy than the actual puppy per se.

You don't pay for the puppy you pay for it's breeding.

It is the proven lines behind the breeding that would attract the interest of other breeders if all you are importing for is make a buck.

If a dog is imported from a "main" register overseas why would it have to be limited registered here?

Cropped dogs aren't. They can't be exhibited at sanctioned shows is all.

But their uncropped progeny can.

I have you have been negotiating for 3 years surely you would know by now if you want the breeding or not.

If you are genuine, pay the bucks, stipulate not to be docked & get on with it instead of making mountains out of molehills.

Many dogs are registered on main overseas and can only go on limited - including non recognised colours etc.

How do you think they will limit which dogs can be shown if they dont put all docked dogs on limited register?

Easy,

The steward disqualities them at the gate.

However their progency shouldn't, & don't, suffer for the sins of their progenitors.

You don't really think every cropped import is automatically placed on the limited register do you?

They are imported for their bloodlines with no attempt to enter them in a show.

There are cropped imports listed in the the D.O.L breed profiles as available for stud duties.

Bitches whelp whole puppies (most of the time) & this proposal is to ensure they remain whole if they are to be part of the ANKC show scene.

Any breeder who imports a dog from mismarked parents or those of highly undesirable colours would be stupid wouldn't they?

Locally bred puppies with mismarks or colours are placed on the limited register anyhow, so what's the difference?

While I don't agree with the law, there are still quite a few docked exhibits in the rings & I imagine this proposal is a one size fits all solution to cut thru the bullshit.

"No docked exhibits will be allowed to be exhibited at ANKC sanctioned shows....end of game"

So just as any dog which suffers a malady & has to be neutered for any reason is ineligle to compete in the real section of a dog show, so will any which need their tails docked for any reason.

Sure makes sense so why would anyone want to stand up for their rights or be concerned they are being judged as lesser beings and potential animal abusers anyway - right?