We Have Been Betrayed

[Sheridan]

The suggestion is that dogs are being deliberately harmed to get a docked tail. An entire litter of puppies with broken tails? Sounds dodgy to me. If there is such evidence then it should be presented.

yes and that breeder made an example of, but no need to punish the good ones.

The good ones who dock tails?

[-Megz-]

The suggestion is that dogs are being deliberately harmed to get a docked tail. An entire litter of puppies with broken tails? Sounds dodgy to me. If there is such evidence then it should be presented.

yes and that breeder made an example of, but no need to punish the good ones.

The good ones who dock tails?

There are those that only dock when accidents to happen. I know a breeder who had a litter of 4, one is docked due to injury sustained at a very young age, the other three are leading merry tailed lives.

[Elise+Hudson]

I think this will be extremely harmful to the dog scene here in Australia. My breed is one that often has tails docked prior to importing, and we need to continue importing to increase the gene pool.

I would not spend the money to import a dog or bitch only to never be able to set foot in the ring just because it was docked prior to arrival in the country. Yes the genes are still there, but I want to show and compete with my dogs.

I very much hope this does not get past this stage!

[alpha bet]

The ANKC doesnt even get their information straight. Let's look at an example of my own breed (perhaps this applies to others as well)

The following is from the official ANKC breed standard for Australian Shepherds.......

Docked: Docked tail is straight, not to exceed four inches in length.

Undocked: Set on following the line of the croup. Of moderate length, not kinked. In overall balance with the rest of the dog. Moderately feathered

Bobbed: May be naturally bobbed. Is straight, not to exceed four inches in length.

I have queried this with the ANKC and Dogs Vic - neither have responded. They will to bring in rules on docking tails yet they havent sorted out their breed standardes.This is the standard as per the judges and exhibitors view - yet no mention of the fact that a Naturally Bobbed tail may be of ANY length..... it is very common to have aussies born NBT and yet have quarter, half or three quarter tails..... but under their standard if the tail exceed 4 inches it is not acceptable.....?

Perhaps the ANKC should clean up their own information first.

[Rebanne]

The suggestion is that dogs are being deliberately harmed to get a docked tail. An entire litter of puppies with broken tails? Sounds dodgy to me. If there is such evidence then it should be presented.

yes and that breeder made an example of, but no need to punish the good ones.

The good ones who dock tails?

the ones outlaying huge amounts of money to import fresh bloodlines, the ones who do actually have to dock a pup/dogs tail due to genuine problems. If there is any real proof that some people are breaking puppies tails just so they can be docked then they need to be punished.

[yarracully]

It is not an ANKC rule, it is the law.

The ANKC has to be seen to be law abiding.

I am pro tail docking.

But the law (State laws such as companion animal acts etc) does allow a dog that is docked legally in its country of birth to still be allowed into Australia. So if you import a docked dog from America or Canada it can still come into the country.

This proposal would mean even though the dog is done legally in its country of birth it can't be used at an ANKC event. As such this is going to impact on anyone thinking of importing a dog. Why would you spend thousands to import a dog if you can't compete with it. Don't see too many people spending a lot on importing just so the dog can be a pet only.

This motion means you could have a dog that has had a procedure performed which is perfectly legal in its country and as such can legally be bought into Australia but not allowed to compete within Australia.

Potentially this is going to affect genetic diversity within many breeds.

Next thing they will be trying to stop dogs that have been debarked from competing. Sorry, forgot that has already started.

For those of us with bob tails within a breed this will mean an additional test to undertake so we can prove our innocence. A test that has nothing to do with breed improvement. This motion is not the area of business that state councils should be enacting.

Edited February 2, 2013 by yarracully

[murve]

apparently this rule not just be for Conformation but also other disciplines too eg: Obedience, Field trials etc etc, also not allowing to join an affiliated clubs

[yarracully]

apparently this rule not just be for Conformation but also other disciplines too eg: Obedience, Field trials etc etc, also not allowing to join an affiliated clubs

Dead right Murve. The dog would not be allowed to compete in ANY ANKC EVENT. Confirmation, agility, Obedience, tracking, earthdog, dancing with dogs,herding, field trials, retrieving trials, endurance trials, weight pulls you name it their all included as ANKC events.

[Christina]

Why can't people just accept that it is not legal to chop portions of the tail off healthy dogs, or any other body part. Guess it would be hard to prove if someone deliberately broke or injured a tail. One could assume if it was a regular occurrence but if this is enough to prosecute I don't know ?

If people want to show imports from other countries they have to choose a puppy & say do not dock the tail. Its not complicated.

If they already have a dog here that is docked they can still breed from it but not show.

There are actually far more stupid & unfair rules in the dog world than this.

Some people are very sick & will do all sorts of awful things so it may be true that this has happened. If it is only once it is one time too many.

[Airedaler]

Why can't people just accept that it is not legal to chop portions of the tail off healthy dogs,

This is the sort of emotive rubbish that has been used to make something (ie tail docking)look and sound far worse than it was. No one here that I can see is debating whether we should be allowed to dock (I would say that even the most committed pro dockers have accepted that tail docking is a thing of the past as a routine proceedure).

The issue is about Dogs Victoria or some of it's CoM taking it upon themselves to effectively stop many people competing in their chosen activity without even consulting those affected. So let's keep the subject on track.

It detracts from the real point of this whole thing and that is that once again people who partake in this hobby are having other people's and/or canine management committee's opinions thrust upon them without consultation.

There is little hope for the dog world as such when people within it are not prepared to support each other.

[OSoSwift]

Banding isn't chopping portions of tails off.

I agree - if these agligations are correct, prove it or get rid of it from the letter. To use unsubstanitated stories such as these is extremely unprofessional. While I understand the if we can't crop then so what if we can't dock, puppies are cropped at a much older age so it is far easier to leave a dog uncropped than it is a dog who would have been docked or banded at a few days old.

[yarracully]

Why can't people just accept that it is not legal to chop portions of the tail off healthy dogs, or any other body part. Guess it would be hard to prove if someone deliberately broke or injured a tail. One could assume if it was a regular occurrence but if this is enough to prosecute I don't know ?

If people want to show imports from other countries they have to choose a puppy & say do not dock the tail. Its not complicated.

If they already have a dog here that is docked they can still breed from it but not show.

There are actually far more stupid & unfair rules in the dog world than this.

Some people are very sick & will do all sorts of awful things so it may be true that this has happened. If it is only once it is one time too many.

Wrong Christine in some large countries it is still legal. In fact two of the countires would be among the highest canine populations in the world. Would you also support a ban on desexing dogs as this involves chopping portions off a healthy dog. Or maybe ban the removal of due claws. After seeing one of my older dogs after his dew claws got tangled in a security door and had to be surgically removed I fully support removal at birth

Normal practice is to dock a tail within a few days of birth. Would be a bit hard to choose a pup in USA and request it not be docked when its only two days old. Its almost impossible to say which pup has a show prospect at that age. Then by the time it was old enough to decide its show worthiness its to late to dock. As such those that can and do dock usually do the whole litter in one hit as soon as they are born. Thus these dogs would not be able to be imported and used for competition in Australia.

Additionally the breeders are not going to hold off and not dock the entire litter as they are probably looking for a show prospect as well and are not likely to jeopardise their own chances by not docking simply because someone in Australia MIGHT get a pup from them in eight weeks time or whatever it is. If the deal fell through the breeder would be stuck with a pup with a tail when everyone in America (or whereever) with the same breed has docked dogs.

If I was a USA breeder and someone from Australia asked me not to dock a litter because they MIGHT be looking at getting on of my pups I know what I would do. More chances of selling that pup in America than in gambling it might go to Australia

Reality is since it is illegal in every state why do we need such a restricting law anyway.

Its a bit like converting all cars to have a maximum speed of 50k's per hour. then saying the speed limit is 75. If they can't go over 50 why have a 75 limit.

For Australian bred dogs it is a redundant rule with no purpose and for imported dogs it restricts genetic diversity which could eventually lead to more breed problems through a narrowing gene pool. This from a body that is supposed to support and encourage breed health.

[Roova]

Would you also support a ban on desexing dogs as this involves chopping portions off a healthy dog

Desexing a dog is not removing a body part which plays a big part in a how a dog communicates with the world though. The reason for desexing is to avoid unwanted puppies or/and unwanted behaviour.

What is the positive for the dog in removing a tail except to please the selfish views of humans?

[Topoftheheap]

Whether or not we all agree with tail docking or not, it has been made illegal by all states in this country.

Part of the public identity crisis the pedigree dog world is suffering, is the perception that we do not follow the rules and the ANKC is a toothless body that does not enforce it's Code of Ethics.

Unfortunately, for some, tail docking was banned, not by the ANKC, but by government bodies, I can see how many people seeing so many docked tails in the ring would get the idea that the show breeders are not abiding the rules, and by allowing the dogs to be shown blatently, and in alot of cases winning, that the ANKC, and the state authorities are condoning the subversion of the rules.

Edited February 2, 2013 by tibbiesby2

[oakway]

Now hang on a minute, this is not a debate over Tail Docking. Tail Docking is illegal in this county and its Law. It was not the doing of the controlling bodies

it was a Law made by the Government.

What has been put, in a motion is, that no legally docked dog may be exhibited in this country in any ANKC sanctioned event.

Now let me take this one step further, what if somebody places another motion asking for the banning of all Flat Faced Breeds??????.

Lets go one step further again, what if a motion is placed asking that all dogs over 15 inches be banned from being shown and bred.

Now don't tell me it won't happen, anything is possible. Now before you start pointing fingers at one another just think of the repercussions that could happen if this motion should happen to be passed, it will open a flood gate of possibilities.

[WreckitWhippet]

It is not an ANKC rule, it is the law.

The ANKC has to be seen to be law abiding.

I am pro tail docking.

It's illegal in most instances to dock a dog, but it is not illegal to import a docked dog, therefore those that import docked dogs should have every right to show them

[TessnSean]

Why can't people just accept that it is not legal to chop portions of the tail off healthy dogs,

This is the sort of emotive rubbish that has been used to make something (ie tail docking)look and sound far worse than it was. No one here that I can see is debating whether we should be allowed to dock (I would say that even the most committed pro dockers have accepted that tail docking is a thing of the past as a routine proceedure).

The issue is about Dogs Victoria or some of it's CoM taking it upon themselves to effectively stop many people competing in their chosen activity without even consulting those affected. So let's keep the subject on track.

It detracts from the real point of this whole thing and that is that once again people who partake in this hobby are having other people's and/or canine management committee's opinions thrust upon them without consultation.

There is little hope for the dog world as such when people within it are not prepared to support each other.

Exactly. I am anti docking myself but that is irrelevant to my objection to the motion. The motion is based on 3 things.

• Dogs are being cropped illegally ( no proof provided but lots of emotive hyperbole)
  
• Dogs are being marked as imported and they are really located in Australa the whole time (no proof provided)
  
• Docked dogs win more
  

Forget about the legality of docking or your personal views and think about the broader picture. Who will this affect and why?

[angelsun]

No one has commented on the grammar or spelling of the letter first posted...Unless someone has retyped this and has not checked it...it's appauling! This type of letter, should it be original and correct, should never be submitted for consideration to ANY major organization based simply on the lack of professionalism shown.

Now...apart from that:

I am pro docking (and pro cropping) I have currently TWO imported dogs with docked tails, and am in the process of bringing another one....why? Not because they have short tails...but for their bloodlines. For me, it's a bonus to have a docked tail, BECAUSE I LIKE HOW IT LOOKS! AND it's true to my breeds heritage which I protect....sue me for doing this sort of thing, but to ME, it's as important as keeping IN SIZE and not having the wrong features as written in the breed standard and our historical records.

The arguement from some is that mediocre docked dogs are winning over better natural tailed ones. BLAME JUDGES...(and those that blindly follow their decisions)

What about the breeds that have the bobtail gene? Do we rule out a puppy for future simply because of the lack of tail by a genetic quirk? What if the dog is in fact a fine specimin for the breed....will the ban of exhibition of docked or shortened tails, evolve into a ban to use them for breeding? Give it time, and let the breeders and showies fight amongst themselves long enough, and you can be sure it will come to pass. How to police this sort of thing? Anyone remember 'Breed masters' (known by many other names around the world) who are responsible for assessing dogs in litters and deciding IF they are eligible for registration or not based on deformities or faults.

It's not about if you are pro docking or anti docking....for many of you, you say you don't care because it doesn't apply to your beloved breeed....but do you honestly feel you are safe? What if mandatory eye testing becomes a criteria for showing/breeding, and you own a Golden Retriever who has retinal folds? (considered not acceptable for breeding by N.A. eye testing standards) What about you Sharpei breeders/fanciers with pedigrees full of dogs that have had eyes tacked from as young as 4 weeks....you could be in the target next and not permitted to show or breed with a dog that has had this done.

Others argue that docking isn't the same as the above..that it's nasty, cruel and simply wrong. You have the right to say that. I also have the right to say that when I have banded tails, the pups are still wet and are nursing and make no indication of anything happening to them. They COMMUNICATE with their peers just fine thanks, compared to their full tailed friends, and I am currently in the process of waiting for genetic testing to see if my breeding dogs carry the bob tail gene.

[Sheridan]

People who say this isn't about tail docking itself have it only partly right. Tail docking is illegal and no lamenting about it will change the law but unless pedigree dog breeders want further laws they have to abide by the ones there are already. Because the reaction to people breaking laws is always more laws. Bringing in new laws is always easier than policing existing laws. The bad apples always ruin it for everyone else.

A simple way around people illegally docking is that no locally bred dog can be shown if it's docked. People will actually learn not to illegally dock when they cannot show their dogs. If this means these apparently great people stop breeding then so be it. That's up to them. Is having a docked tail worth more than the breed itself? I think if people answer yes to that then there is something drastically wrong with your world view.

While it may not stop people faking import certificates to show a dog is imported when it isn't, perhaps Dogs Vic should do some work on confirming an import before registering it. The days when the ANKC simply touts itself as a registry are gone.

[Bisart Dobes]

What's the problem with it? In European countries where tail docking is banned, you can't show a dog with a docked tail, even if it was imported and legally docked. If you're going to ban tail docking, banning the dogs from being shown makes sense too.

I don't see the problem either. Disgusting that some people would actually break the tail on purpose.

Do you actually believe that breeders are doing this ??? Really ???