Help!

[Mum 2 Bailey n Chelsea]

Hi There,

I have an 11 week old poodle cross puppy and he has started to bite really badly!!

Now I know this is a puppy thing but it is getting really out of hand!

I tell him 'NO!' and then give him something else to chew but it doesn't seem to be working! He ends up just barking at me?

Is there any advice you can give me?

Mel

[sidoney]

See this thread, which should still be on the front page of this forum.

[poodlefan]

Bailey's Mum, mouthing will only be just a puppy thing if you train your puppy out of it.

I've seen a 10 month lab still mouthing - hard. Its owners never bothered to do anything about it until the dog hurt someone inadvertently.

Those thread should give you the advice you need.. but feel free to ask any questions.

[sas]

Yowch in pain, it worked for us and Leila when she always used to paw us and for Ned with his play biting.

They don't want to hurt you so if you show him he's hurt you he'll learn.

[Nekhbet]

. a yelp can sometimes make it worst because they can see it as an encouragement to play. give him attention only when he behaves. Poodles are fairly head strong so make a 'naughty' area if he really gets hyper (those large mesh pet cages are good) and leave him for 5 minutes. just water.

When he barks and bites roll him on his back and give him a little shake and say 'no' loudly. This is how dogs show others they are the boss. Wear a leather glove if you mind being bitten but hold him down until he stops being nippy and fussing (not too hard of course) He's showing that hes the boss of you and barking at you is like saying 'no bugger you i'll do what I like'

100% will not terrorise or emotionally scar the puppy in any way, promise!! works great with jack russels too. Make sure when he quietens down to calmly stroke him and praise him softly to show its good to be calm.

good luck! Jules

[Dogsfevr]

Heavon forbid you suggest to someone to roll there dog on there bag & wear gloves so when it bites you have protection.

So hes biting badly,when does he bite??during play,what where you doing when he bites??is he snappy when you pick up & touch,brush etc,

You need to decide is he biting or mouthing,gnawing hard is associated with teeting so its important to direct puppy to a chew toy instead of hands,also dont encourage they gnawing & then when it gets to the hurt stage decide you,ve had enough & tell pup off,its important not to encouragae a scenrio to allow the pup to think its acceptable until you think its out of control.

First rule treat as a dog & ensure your pack leader status is obvious,generally we find people with little dogs ,dont treat them with the respect they deserve because there small,whether it be poodle cross or rottie they all require the same boundries,rules & consistant training .Little doesnt mean you except less.

Once the dog is fully vaccinated find a good training class & go,once you learn you will find the pup will learn very quickly & all is great,check the baby teeth to also make sure they are coming out & not making mouthing more than normal to try & get the teeth to come out

[Nekhbet]

rolling the pup onto its back is simply mimicking canine behaviour. I was taught this method by trainers who used it to get a over zealous or headstrong breed pups to stop biting. I'm not suggesting one gets into a full on brawl with the puppy, thats counterproductive, and in no way am I condoning violence or mistreatment.

I just found this method was a good basis to, excuse the pun, nip the nipping in the bud especially for people who became terrorised by their pups biting them and who refused to play with it. (i just suggested because you said it was getting out of hand, hope i didnt offend anyone)

I agree with showdog, you definately need to set the boundaries now and your level of behaviour modification will depend on the severity. Has he broken the skin, chewing on your hand (shoudlnt have your hand there that long any way)

Teach the pup sit. Easy enough. When he starts getting out of control stand up, cross your arms and say 'NO ... sit' not waving your hands so the pup focuses on your face. When the pup is calm resume the game. If he barks at you then look up at the ceiling and slowly walk away. This says to the pup 'i'm your boss and I dont like your behaviour so i'm going to ignore you' pay attention when he settles or even sits. chicken necks are great for teething, especially half frozen ones

[catzatsea]

Nekhbet,

Here is a link for you regarding more info on what is the Alpha Roll.

http://www.k9force.net/dominance.html

Cheers

Edited April 11, 2005 by catzatsea

[Nekhbet]

thanks catzatsea. Yeah I do know only the truely professional (or the truely mad) have attempted the roll on overly aggressive adult dog. On a working line or highly dominant dog it would only result in a physical fight between the trainer and the dog. I once saw a video of an american police officer who tried to roll an aggressive adult male german shepherd ... and he lost big time although I've never seen anyone sit on the dog?!

Like I said I only did it on puppies that just did not understand when no meant no and the owners were at their wits end (i did puppy preschool and difficult dogs) and at this age i wouldnt think that a pup would cause a huge amount of damage when having a tantrum (I also have a rescue ferret so I appreciate the skin saving quality of a glove hehe).

I'd love to see what other people think about gentle alpha rolls on puppies. I'm only spouting things I've been taught so I'm open to learn alternative methods people have on dealing with these situations (PMs good for me) let me pick your brains!!!

Thanks heaps

[poodlefan]

I don't advocate alpha rolls under any circumstances. Big or small, I don't believe in giving any dog an experience that makes it feel the need to defend itself. If you wouldn't do it to a big dog because it might end badly for you, why subject a small dog to such treatment? A bite is a bite - and you certainly don't want to be teaching any dog to do that, especially when the lesson in mind is teaching the dog NOT TO BITE.

Furthermore, a more timid dog can be traumatised by the experience.

Why use a training method on a pup that you can't go on with as it grows. Better to start how you intend to go on in my opinion. There are better ways of teaching bite inhibition.

Poodles come in all temperaments from headstrong to very submissive - I've got one of each and one halfway in between. ;) Furthermore, Bailey's Mum's dog is a poodle cross - so its temperament may not be at all "poodle like".

I believe it doesn't pay to generalise about the temperament of any breed - better to observe and evaluate the temperament of individual dogs - more effective for the dog's training and far safer for the trainer.

Edited April 11, 2005 by poodlefan

[Kez]

All I can say is that Gypsy came from a home where she'd never been "Alpha Rolled"... and she was kept apart from her littermates because she bossed them too much.

She then went to a "rearer" to grow up with other pups at 7 months old...

And now has 3 large scars because she hadn't learnt early enough that being aggressive wasn't acceptable.

She came here at 9 months old, and Eden had to put her back in her box - Eden went so far as to pin her down to make Gypsy understand that aggression is not acceptable (Gypsy tried to steal a toy, and didn't succeed in the tug-o-war, so tried to attack Eden).

Kanga arrived and Gypsy tried to steal his bone (by growling), and she got put back in her place by him also. All 3 of my dogs can be fed "together" and nobody argues about it... they will share from the one bowl because they understand that nobody is allowed to dominate (only Me!).

She only tried biting me once, a loud "No" and "shove" (as she launched at me I shifted my weight so she didn't connect, but was I able to knock her down in the same movement, much as a dog does) - She has never tried it since, nor with anyone else (including my daughter).

Dogs aren't "gentle" when they discipline - if a human scarred a dog in a dominance battle, they'd be prosecuted; There is no need to be cruel to a dog either.

"Alpha Rolling" is not the method of choice when training out of "mouthing" - but if it was a dog that was doing the "education" (instead of a human), do you think they would yelp and then move the dog to a new place? Would they give the pup something else to chew on?

Everyone has their own methods for training - like not all methods are the same, not all dogs are the same.

Not everyone has the same amount of "dog sense" either, so the gentlest methods are the safest in "inexperienced" hands.

Dogs in a pack situation will eventually try to "challenge" for supremacy if "strength" was used to establish it, so it should be avoided at all costs if possible.

[rachiie]

Well reading this thread has certainly given me something to think about. I had always been told to use that 'alpha roll' if Axle was biting out of control. I did it once and he cried so badly without cease that i let him up. Haven't done it since. He hasn't needed it - he just grew out of biting and chasing my pants leg.

But i noticed that at training the instructors do it. Our instructor at PPS did it once to a particularly badly behaved puppy. And i must say i thought it worked really well.. the pup was so good the next week, and was still keen as heck to play when it was allowed.

Also there is a lady that comes to training that breeds Rotties. I think she's on her 9th. She loves them. One of the first nights we were there, the rotty got cranky at another dog, so the lady grabbed it and said NO! and it had a go at her, so she did the alpha roll, and it actually bit her i think, becuase the next i knew, one of the male instructors was sitting on it.

But i didn't even think that it could be detrimental. What do you think, is it okay to use on particularly naughty dogs, or do you think it should not be used at all?... Perhaps that is something for another thread..

[Kavik]

I think you probably risk being bitten doing it.

[rachiie]

I guess that is what happened with the rotty. Wow. What an eye opener. This one really made me think.

[Dogsfevr]

If any training school did on alpha roll on my dog id knock there lights out.The lady with the rotty got what she deserved sadly the dog paid the price ,a situation that shouldnt have happened.

We have had pups with no litter mates & with correct training there fine,

[Guest 1nfamoz]

When we play games and his very excited, he sometimes takes a snap at my feet or hands, when he does this I just scream NO! and look him in the eyes and sto playing and walk away.

I resume play a bit later, hoping his learnt his lesson..

[ElectraWoman]

I tried the "alpha roll" method once on Abel. Didn't work. In fact, it probably escalated his behaviour because he felt threatened.

I'm not a dog, and therefore I don't know how to do the alpha roll correctly

[Mum 2 Bailey n Chelsea]

I would not be keen to try the alpha roll on Bailey.

I'm still working hard with him to stop him from biting, the best thing we have found so far is a 'time out' room. When it gets totally out of control and starts biting hard we put him in the time out room for about 30 seconds and it seems to work.

Saying 'NO' and yelping doesn't work, he just barks and gets even more excited!!

He is working well with me on not biting but he bites my husband a lot. I think my husband might need 'training'

Thank you for all your posts!

Mel

[ninaandted]

He is working well with me on not biting but he bites my husband a lot. I think my husband might need 'training' 

I had the same problem with my old jack russell and all men. male visitors (we had her at work with us all day) wouldn't listen to me and loved playing biting games with her and their hands. i really loathe visitors and partners who won't support your training. it's one of my pet peeves because they are usually the first to protest when the dog is misbehaving!!

and of course once they have wound them up it is all on for young and old!! :D

anyway - that was a personal gripe - sorry about that!!

our jrt eventually grew out of it but we were given some "dominance" tips from our vet who had a belief that JRTs were the most dominant dogs on the planet!!

she regarded all disobedience and ignoring "no" as a dominance thing.

I no longer necessarily agree with everything she said (it was my first dog at the time) but i found a couple of things useful for asserting that you are boss, getting "no" really understood and calming them down.

I would say "no", interrupt the behaviour and get them to either sit or drop and have them stay there, with a hand on the puppy if necessary. depends on the age of the puppy how long the stay is. if young less time (say 10 seconds) and as they get older a bit longer. then release and if they start biting again repeat until they equate it with an immediate stop to the fun. it's like time out but you can do it immediately and don't have to have a "spot" as such. it was useful for us because we might be in many different environments.

the second one which I find more effective if our dogs currently cross the line is to hold their head still with both hands and look them in the eyes and growl and say the no. I wouldn't try this with a truly dominant dog though!!! but for a puppy just testing the boundaries it can get across that you really mean "no" and holding their head stops them biting (or doing whatever they were doing)

it's all in the way you say the "no" too, until they understand what the word means. don't yell or get high pitched. the more it sounds like a growl the more they might understand. once they understand the meaning of the word the tone becomes less important but like "come" and "sit" it is a new language.

think of a tone of voice your parents used to use that stopped you in your tracks when you were being naughty and it might work. I imitate my mother's "you're in trouble voice" and it doesn't matter what I'm saying the dogs stop and look at me and know I'm not pleased!! and she never yelled!!

just be clear and immediate in your responses to the behaviour. they really don't understand the lecture that comes 30 seconds to a minute after they have done something wrong.

[rachiie]

Growling definitely works! Sometimes i just "grr" at him now, and he knows that he's bad. Of course, he rolls over onto his back for chest rubs and i have to walk away before i give into temptation.. :D

I think also that he has learnt to read my body language? If i come charging out of the door having caught him chewing something that he's not meant to be, before i say anything, he has dropped it and the tail is between the legs. Do you think that is body language, or him knowing he's doing bad?

Edited April 13, 2005 by rachiie