corvus Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I have a slow-ish dog and generally his performance is fast and reliable only when he's sure of himself. So we do lots of drilling, changing small things here and there, changing sequences, changing contexts. The aim is to get him very sure that when he hears/sees a cue he will know exactly how to respond. He needs a very big reinforcement history to build his confidence. If he is distractible or slow it is nearly always because he is not certain of himself. The environment is different or I'm taking him too close to a stranger and he wants to greet them but doesn't want to break the heel... That kind of thing. He is a very easy going dog, but that doesn't mean he's never disturbed by things. He just shows it very subtly. I usually up the reinforcement rate if he becomes hesitant. If I deal with it straight away it's usually not such a big deal. We still have problems weaving around other dogs in stability exercises at training, though. The trainers don't notice, but I know he's lagging because he's conflicted. He wants to acknowledge the other dogs and heel at the same time, but he has to choose. He chooses heeling, but he slows down and his head goes down. A sure sign that his mind isn't on the task. Incidentally, instructors at my training club regularly decide dogs are ready for things that they are actually not ready for, and as a result, the dogs fail, handlers get upset and frustrated, and the dogs practice blowing off their handlers. Drives me crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 he's very low drive full stop. I've been training flash, similar (prob not as good) as you. using a tug, and it works well with him. but Milo will ignore any food reward when he's distracted. and it can take handfuls to keep his attention.. I was thinking of contacting you to see if those distance things have been sorted yet? or even working out something short term, I keep getting so frustrated, and of course he picks up on it. I have to stop and walk away. I don't know where I am going wrong. hopefully I can get some help through fb/dogzonline/obedience, and something will click... otherwise this will be our first and last trial.. :-( It might be something totally different- but I had to train one of my dogs to take treats when he was distracted because previously I had waited for good behaviour (which there wasnt any because he was distracted) so he got used to not wanting the treats I was carrying around. It took a fair amount of work to teach him that the treats were up for grabs! At first I gave him a heap of treats one after the other regardless of what he was doing until he started to expect/demand the treat- I made sure he was hungry at this stage so there was a little motivation for him to want them- even if he wasnt looking at me and being a bit silly. My criteria was that if he took a treat he got a treat for being a good boy :laugh: . I was then able to start at a greater distance to ask for easy positions and then work up to eye contact and focus because he had finally realised that the treats could still be earnt even if he was distracted. It increased his motivation to the point that I now have quite good focus, and its easy enough to move a meter or two away from any major distraction and get that focus back if he does switch off food. I havent had to do that with any of my other dogs and because they are much more focused and learn things quicker so I could see it being a disaster for them- but perhaps something similar would work? I also became less frustrated because I was getting excited about him taking a treat and interacting with me on any level, rather than focusing on all the stuff that was just beyond him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 a short video of me working with milo My immediate reaction is you are not moving briskly with purpose. Dogs like to "join in". If you are tentative they will not be inspired. Tone of voice is flat too. You have to pretend work is the best thing ever. One thing you always have with you (apart from your body language) and can use is your voice tone, you can let your dog know it is on the right track through a heeling pattern. I don't mean squealing around the ring either, but women are great when it comes to using good voice tone. And if a wheel falls off, it is only points off, deep breath, start again as if nothing has happened and you can still pass and end up with a happy dog. And if your heel command has become a switch off with bad connotations, change it!! Good luck, he is a lovely dog!! Hi Dragonwoman, thank you for posting, It is a major failing of mine, that I dawdle when walking... I try to walk briskly, sometimes I manage, often I trip over my feet lol.. trying to think of what foot should be where for good footwork... it can be funny when I end up tripping over milo... There is nothing I can do about my voice, I'm lucky to have any. I've had several lots of throat surgery. I try my best, but it's hard to "carry" emotion in my voice, and quite painfull. my instructor and I are working on my body language being more expressive? for milo, to make up for lack of vocal expression. He's generally good at heeling (except for left turns.) we have a game we play, where I run around and he tries to stay in heel... he gets quite excited at it. Today at training we discussed milo's slow responses, and the feeling is that he should improve with time. but will never be a "fast sitter" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 I have a slow-ish dog and generally his performance is fast and reliable only when he's sure of himself. So we do lots of drilling, changing small things here and there, changing sequences, changing contexts. The aim is to get him very sure that when he hears/sees a cue he will know exactly how to respond. He needs a very big reinforcement history to build his confidence. If he is distractible or slow it is nearly always because he is not certain of himself. The environment is different or I'm taking him too close to a stranger and he wants to greet them but doesn't want to break the heel... That kind of thing. He is a very easy going dog, but that doesn't mean he's never disturbed by things. He just shows it very subtly. I usually up the reinforcement rate if he becomes hesitant. If I deal with it straight away it's usually not such a big deal. We still have problems weaving around other dogs in stability exercises at training, though. The trainers don't notice, but I know he's lagging because he's conflicted. He wants to acknowledge the other dogs and heel at the same time, but he has to choose. He chooses heeling, but he slows down and his head goes down. A sure sign that his mind isn't on the task. Incidentally, instructors at my training club regularly decide dogs are ready for things that they are actually not ready for, and as a result, the dogs fail, handlers get upset and frustrated, and the dogs practice blowing off their handlers. Drives me crazy. Hi Corvus, thank you for posting. I do lots of drilling (very short sessions) and he knows the moves, he just tends to get distracted at times, since I posted my first post here, I've gone back to using treats, and am learning/using new footwork. it is showing some improvement. Milo is great at many things, his stays tend to be solid, and he "ignores" other dogs when he should (will say hello if allowed quite happily too.) The trainers at Bendigo are very good, and don't push too much, we had discussions today, and she thinks I have a fair chance of making a credible pass (if I fail, it'll be my fault, not the dogs, I'm prone to double signaling/commanding. I will be concentrating this week on our sits/stands, and also on left turns... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted February 3, 2013 Author Share Posted February 3, 2013 he's very low drive full stop. I've been training flash, similar (prob not as good) as you. using a tug, and it works well with him. but Milo will ignore any food reward when he's distracted. and it can take handfuls to keep his attention.. I was thinking of contacting you to see if those distance things have been sorted yet? or even working out something short term, I keep getting so frustrated, and of course he picks up on it. I have to stop and walk away. I don't know where I am going wrong. hopefully I can get some help through fb/dogzonline/obedience, and something will click... otherwise this will be our first and last trial.. :-( It might be something totally different- but I had to train one of my dogs to take treats when he was distracted because previously I had waited for good behaviour (which there wasnt any because he was distracted) so he got used to not wanting the treats I was carrying around. It took a fair amount of work to teach him that the treats were up for grabs! At first I gave him a heap of treats one after the other regardless of what he was doing until he started to expect/demand the treat- I made sure he was hungry at this stage so there was a little motivation for him to want them- even if he wasnt looking at me and being a bit silly. My criteria was that if he took a treat he got a treat for being a good boy :laugh: . I was then able to start at a greater distance to ask for easy positions and then work up to eye contact and focus because he had finally realised that the treats could still be earnt even if he was distracted. It increased his motivation to the point that I now have quite good focus, and its easy enough to move a meter or two away from any major distraction and get that focus back if he does switch off food. I havent had to do that with any of my other dogs and because they are much more focused and learn things quicker so I could see it being a disaster for them- but perhaps something similar would work? I also became less frustrated because I was getting excited about him taking a treat and interacting with me on any level, rather than focusing on all the stuff that was just beyond him. Hi Jumabarr, thank you for posting, we tried a similar method to yours last year, but found it didn't work with him. recently he has been more treat orientated, and I have begun to understand that timing is everything. his focus is improving, and hopefully will get better... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dragonwoman Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Hi Dragonwoman, thank you for posting, It is a major failing of mine, that I dawdle when walking... I try to walk briskly, sometimes I manage, often I trip over my feet lol.. trying to think of what foot should be where for good footwork... it can be funny when I end up tripping over milo... There is nothing I can do about my voice, I'm lucky to have any. I've had several lots of throat surgery. I try my best, but it's hard to "carry" emotion in my voice, and quite painfull. my instructor and I are working on my body language being more expressive? for milo, to make up for lack of vocal expression. He's generally good at heeling (except for left turns.) we have a game we play, where I run around and he tries to stay in heel... he gets quite excited at it. Today at training we discussed milo's slow responses, and the feeling is that he should improve with time. but will never be a "fast sitter" Sorry about your voice, as you say you are lucky to have one. But...............I bet your dog picks up your mood just the same, because you are "his" and he knows every little thing about you!! Best way to get your footwork right is to practice without your dog until you are sure and confident and not thinking about what is what when he is by your side. That done, you can then concentrate on him and he will work better if you seem self-assured. If you are doubtful, he might think he is causing it, I reckon his positions will improve no end. Dogs always work better when the human is in charge of the ship lol With left turns do you have a different word? Mine is "back" which is actually a position they learn, it is not "heel", but slightly back so you can turn, his head by your knee, not his shoulder? There is some footwork and body language which goes with it, watch a good handler and see how they do it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue & Waldo Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 I have had another thought for you. Set your own goal/s for your first trial that are based on your own handling and not the dog's performance. For example - your footwork in turns is uniform or that you are relaxed or that your verbal commands and hand signals are clear. Also don't forget to work on your lead craft so you don't get tangled up and listen to the judge. In the recall and SFE don't halt until yu are told to etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted February 4, 2013 Author Share Posted February 4, 2013 Thank you both for your suggestions, I will try a "back" command, although, I'll have to think carefully for a word (we already use back) would that count as an extra command tho? I practice my footwork daily without him (or with another dog) and I think I shall manage within reason (hopefully) a question, and I'll try to get a video later, when he is dropping now, he is swinging? so he's on a 45 degree angle to me, he doesn't do it all the time, but it is becoming more frequent. I'm wondering what I'm doing to cause it, he's generally dropped straight in the past. my goal for this trial is to get through it without total embarrassment, I don't expect to pass, indeed I really just needed to see a trial, however since I have to travel 4+ hrs to get to a trial, it strikes me as stupid not to enter, and treat it as a training exercise. I would like to thank everyone for their advice, I have read and where applicable I have applied it. we shall continue to work towards improving our performance, and unless I totally stuff up, or milo has a really off day, we should make a reasonable showing for ourselves. (unless someone chucks a dumbbell while we are doing recall, then I'll prob get a perfect dumbbell retrieve....) I believe that would prob cause us to get a fail mark on the recall.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RubyStar Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) Thank you both for your suggestions, I will try a "back" command, although, I'll have to think carefully for a word (we already use back) would that count as an extra command tho? Yes it would. You can't give a command to turn. Only commands permitted during heelwork are "heel", "stand" and "drop". Also, using the dog's name at any time once you've told the judge you're ready and have given the heel command, will cost you, too. So if you need/want to get the dog's attention back, give another "heel" command. Yes you will lose points, but I believe less so than their using their name, but it also does depend on the judge on the day :) Most importantly remember, you want to make it a positive experience on the day, especially considering it's his first trial, so don't be afraid of losing points or failing, and help your dog when he needs it! :) a question, and I'll try to get a video later, when he is dropping now, he is swinging? so he's on a 45 degree angle to me, he doesn't do it all the time, but it is becoming more frequent. I'm wondering what I'm doing to cause it, he's generally dropped straight in the past. Without a video it's hard to know, but have you practiced drops next to a wall to condition him to drop straight, and only rewarded for straight drops? Don't reward for sloppy positions. we shall continue to work towards improving our performance, and unless I totally stuff up, or milo has a really off day, we should make a reasonable showing for ourselves. (unless someone chucks a dumbbell while we are doing recall, then I'll prob get a perfect dumbbell retrieve....) I believe that would prob cause us to get a fail mark on the recall.... Been there, done that, have the tshirt When you have a retriever and something goes flying in the next ring, watch out!! What's more embarrassing was it happened not too long ago in a UD trial Edited February 4, 2013 by RubyStar Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue & Waldo Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Is the trial the Doberman Club RT German Breed at KCC Park? If so I am entering Novice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Is the trial the Doberman Club RT German Breed at KCC Park? If so I am entering Novice. that's the one... we can cheer each other on... lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue & Waldo Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Is the trial the Doberman Club RT German Breed at KCC Park? If so I am entering Novice. that's the one... we can cheer each other on... lol I will be in Novice with a black mini schnauzer. I am going to ask by DH to video me. If my DD's camera has more than one button on it the results may be interesting as he is technically challenged at times. If times work out would you like me to try and video you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted February 6, 2013 Author Share Posted February 6, 2013 Is the trial the Doberman Club RT German Breed at KCC Park? If so I am entering Novice. that's the one... we can cheer each other on... lol I will be in Novice with a black mini schnauzer. I am going to ask by DH to video me. If my DD's camera has more than one button on it the results may be interesting as he is technically challenged at times. If times work out would you like me to try and video you? Yes please, I'll bring the video camera... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted February 6, 2013 Author Share Posted February 6, 2013 Oh, I should have a friend there who can do all the videoing... lol.. hopefully Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted February 7, 2013 Author Share Posted February 7, 2013 this is a short clip of a workout/training session, no treats, no rewards (other than the odd pat) this is to give an idea how we are going atm.. believe it or not, he did better drops in our "warm up" than he did here... but since I was no doubt stressing over his performance for the camera, it should give an indication of how we will work for the trial Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
paddles Posted March 3, 2013 Author Share Posted March 3, 2013 (edited) Edited March 3, 2013 by paddles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natsu chan Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Don't worry Paddles it happens! I remember one year at KCC the CCD rings had to be set up right where the ducks had been camping. It was a fiasco! One particularly clever dog (can you guess the breed!:) ) managed to do some of his heel work sliding along the ground. There wasn't one dog (not even the winner) who didnt either sniff, roll or eat the poo at one point or another. Good on you for having a go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FalconRange Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Congratulations on surviving your first trial together! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mudlark Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Lovely enthusiastic recall. And your dog was nice and close to you during the heelwork - lots of people would kill for that position :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sue & Waldo Posted March 3, 2013 Share Posted March 3, 2013 Paddles it was not as bad as it looked on the video. The wind was blowing the sand everywhere and the amount of duck poo was unreal. It was also very hot. The wind was also blowing the BBQ smells over the ring. Your ring also missed the windbreak provided by the building. Milo was in good position and the recall would have been good if you had remembered what to do. Are you able to attend FOO sessions? Must have not been a good DOL day. I went in very confident as our training was awesome this week. Oops! Waldo had no idea of heel. No sits and then did an auto sit in the middle of the heel pattern. He sat and I kept going. What the...After we left the ring Waldo vomited and again this morning so my frustration has now turned to what is wrong. Ah well at least the judge said that my footwork was good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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