Omg! I've Gone And Entered An Obedience Trial

[paddles]

Hi, for some insane reason, I have entered my 2 1/2 yr old gsp in an obedience trial (2nd march) so, I have a little time to deal with some of our training issues. my first issue that I would like advice with, is his "automatic sit" when I stop, he stops, considers, then slowly sits. a "pop" on the lead, gets a slightly faster sit, but only slightly. I can see that his attention is elsewhere. at home, his sits are better, but I think I need a "new" approach. I do use food rewards, but, not every time, and recently, only when he does a reasonable sit.

thank you for your ideas.

I am going to go for a search and read atm, so if you can even direct me to a similar thread, would be much appreciated.

Edited March 3, 2013 by paddles

[fuzzy82]

If he's slow and his attention is elsewhere, there is a motivation issue. Corrections don't fix a dog's lack of motivation. You need to up the rewards, more frequent and something he really enjoys.

[huski]

Yep that sounds with a motivation problem. Correcting a dog for lack of motivation isn't going to help increase their desire or drive. I would look at how you are using rewards and go back to basics by trying to make training more of a game. A lot of people think they need to fade out rewards to trial (as you can't use rewards in the ring) but you don't need to do this - building your dogs durability (how easily is your dog distracted? How sustainable is their focus? How long can they work while maintaining drive?) and making sure you don't become predictable in your reward delivery is part of how we train dogs to compete without fading rewards. If the dog is lacking focus, is easily distracted and is slow to respond to commands you definitely need to look at how you are motivating them to work and how you can make it more fun :)

ETA: if you learn how to use reward delivery to your advantage, not rewarding every time will actually increase your dogs motivation and desire to work/ earn the reward.

Edited January 30, 2013 by huski

[paddles]

I agree with the above statements, but just don't know how to do this.. Huski, we've had discussions about "sled dog racing milo" and his lack of drive. I feel so disheartened. I virtually stopped "correcting" for so long but he just hasn't improved. he does as asked, but so slowly and reluctantly. I've tried the tug/whip thingy, and he just doesn't understand playing unless flash is there too. I tried a straight tug as a reward.. and had minimal result. very little focus. was wondering about trying a ball thing like you use, but was waiting... but then got encouraged to enter this trial (it's breed restricted, so not too big) I'll step back a step, and go back to food rewards.. only rewarding fastish sits???

[huski]

Sorry Paddles now I realise who you are :) There could be a few reasons he doesn't work as well as you want for toys, but what do you think he loves the most? Food or toys? :)

[paddles]

he's very low drive full stop. I've been training flash, similar (prob not as good) as you. using a tug, and it works well with him. but Milo will ignore any food reward when he's distracted. and it can take handfuls to keep his attention.. I was thinking of contacting you to see if those distance things have been sorted yet? or even working out something short term, I keep getting so frustrated, and of course he picks up on it. I have to stop and walk away. I don't know where I am going wrong. hopefully I can get some help through fb/dogzonline/obedience, and something will click... otherwise this will be our first and last trial.. :-(

[ness]

Paddles - to me it sounds like your possibly setting the dog up for failure by trialling at this stage. Maybe you need to take a step back and work on his motivation and maybe just go along and watch the trial.

Have you tried using all his food for training and not feeding him out of a bowl at all to increase his food drive? Have you built up the distraction level gradually? I would use whatever the dog finds most rewarding - for my two they are both different one loves to tug and the other loves food.

Sorry not meant as criticism I know what its like to feel like you want to rush to trialling but I have also seen people get very disheartened trialling dogs who are not ready.

Its not a race to get in the ring its about doing something that is fun and your dog enjoys - if your still struggling when you train then its only likely to be worse with the added pressure of a trial.

Have you done any mock trials through a club?

[paddles]

Hi Ness, we've been doing obedience for a while, and the general thought is that I'm ready to trial (if I can get my act together.) the instructor feels he is nearly ready. we were working in the back yard tonight, and had a woeful session, but yes, we have been slowly building up distractions, as much as I can living in the country. he works... ok... in obedience classes.

I understand what you are saying, and agree, but thought, well, if I treat it as a training exercise (if I fluke and pass, well and good,) it will be a big thing for us, a trip to the big smoke (melb) and lots of funny things.

Milo is well socialised and used to travel etc.

[ness]

Fair enough - just sounded like you were putting a lot of pressure on yourself and that in itself is destined to see it end badly from my experience and from watching others compete.

As far as distractions go have you thought about training outside the local shops/outside the local sports oval/outside the local school yard. They are a few suggestions I have given to some of my country friends in the past. Any place where dogs are allowed is a possible training location. Especially if you want to work on paying attention in heel position around distractions.

[paddles]

Thank you again ness, you hit it on the head, I am stressing (my nature, unfortunately) now that I am less stressed (had a drink) and some treats, milo is doing everything asked. (don't know how that's going to go in a trial) I hadn't thought of doing it up the shops, what a good idea! I will try that. I am trying to tell myself that I should treat this as a training exercise. I get very frustrated at times, Milo was a rehome, and sometimes can be difficult to decipher. I need weekly training with a trainer, and have had issues this last mth or so, because of Christmas break. I feel his sit (and his drop) have never been brilliant (certainly not what they should be) I would like to work on one thing at a time, so thus, atm, his sits. I will also minorly work on his recall etc. once I've fixed his sit, I'll work on his drop. we also have issues with my left turns...

[Sue & Waldo]

Just try and relax. (Not that I do-I usually have to rush to the loo several times at a trial). In my first ever trial after the first "halt" the judge said "forward and for God's sake breathe." If we see each other at trials we still have a laugh.

Having said all that just train well and do the best you can.

I have been thinking about why I trial and I have decided that it is because it is the best thing for me and my dog. If it isn't at any time then stop for a while.

All the best!

[paddles]

Thank you Sue and Waldo, I imagine I'll be in a similar state! Ness, I took Milo up the shops today, plenty of treats, and walked up and down, with some sit's drops, and a stay (he broke, but it was my fault) we worked on our turns and figure 8 a little...

which leads me to my next question.... we are fairly poor at left turns, milo tends to be "forward" of me, and my knee usually ends up banging into his shoulder, I was told in the past to "force" the turn by turning into him and kneeing? him out of the way... 8 mths on, and it's still not working, so obviously have to do something else... I did a little "food" luring the turn this morning, but wondered if that is a good idea? I would assume that even a movement from my left hand would be interpreted as a signal to the dog... (which it would be)

suggestions Please????

[huski]

Paddles, have you been to an obedience trial before and watched some run outs?

I like to think of competition as a way to test our training. Trialling shows me what areas of my training I need to work on to improve. It sounds like there are quite a few things you are unsure about and a few different problems that you are having and without wanting to sound discouraging, if you are having these problems now in training it is very likely that in a trial environment you are going to experience the same issues. By all means go to the trial as it will be a good experience to show you what you need to work on :) But if you enter before you and your dog are ready it can feel really discouraging if the trial doesn't go to plan.

With turning problems, have you done any back end awareness training? Plenty of YouTube videos on it if you search it, I'd also ask how well he understands heel position? Assuming you have your foot work right, if he knows where he needs to be and understands the position and how to move his back end around, the turn will happen fluidly (no need to 'force' it).

Edited February 1, 2013 by huski

[paddles]

I know what you mean Huski, about setting myself up to fail, and I don't expect to pass. (if I do whoo hoo) when you say, back end awareness? you mean he stands on the "block" and swings his back end around? so he comes into heel? yes we've done heaps and he comes into heel, fairly well from behind/beside (provided he's not "in front of me" we're still working on that one. we're not ready for the trial, I'm aware of that, but due to various things, I wanted/needed the boost that going to a trial will give me. our issues are going to come out, because they are there. I have to say tho, that the issues are more mine? than milo's, when any "dog experienced" person takes milo, he works extremely well. (almost different dog) the idea is that getting to a trial (and I'm not driving 4 hrs plus to a trial, and not entering) will give me the confidence in milo's ability to learn. when I got milo, he had NO training at all. so he is trainable, and I am capable of training him (or so I'm told) but my lack of confidence effects his behaviour. (you know it, I know it, I am having problems fixing it) the other theory is that by putting me under pressure, I'm realising that milo is improving. our walk through the shops this morning proved that, 6 mths ago, if I'd tried to calmly walk him around that many people he would have gone nuts on the lead. I am concerned about the "slowness" of his sits, and his left turns, but hopefully with help, I can fix this.

concerning heel position, in my opinion he's too far forward, but all my other dogs have walked, head beside my leg, milo likes shoulder (at least) beside my leg... I'll find a link for you

the gsp...

Edited February 1, 2013 by paddles

[paddles]

a short video of me working with milo

Edited February 1, 2013 by paddles

[FalconRange]

Could he be a little bit slower on the sits and drops because of the footwork? You use the same footwork for both the sit and the drop, which, although you're giving the hand and voice, could be part of the issue?

I was taught to teach the drop by slowing down and then stopping with the right foot extended forward as you give the command and hand signal. This is used to differentiate the sit from the drop, especially when it comes to using silent signals or voice signals only and no hand signals. Once the drop is completed, the left foot comes up to join the right. Whilst teaching, the time between the right going out and the left coming up is extended, far too long for a trial situation, but after repetition, it does get much faster and becomes more natural, and many dogs learn this cue means drop to the point where the hand and voice signals become unnecessary.

It does depend on where you expect his head to be though. Dogs that watch the owners head/upper body probably don't catch a lot of footwork signals though.

On the plus side though, I love how close he heels to your side. Not always an easy thing to teach, so well done!

[RubyStar]

Have you taken sits and drops away from the heel work and just played clicker games with these positions? Make them fun to do and the speed should come! Get a drop, chuck a treat (not too far to start with until the dog learns the game and gets faster with the drops) and ask for another drop as the dog comes back in. Click as soon as they hit the deck, throw treat, rinse repeat. Be as exciting as possible!

Also, I'd slow your left about turn down a tad, and give the dog some indication you're about to turn (slight movement of head or shoulders of the direction you're about to turn, but don't make it too obvious or you'll get pinged for double signals). Currently, you're taking off in the opposite direction in such a hurry, leaving the dog wondering where the heck you went?! :)

Edited February 1, 2013 by RubyStar

[paddles]

Thank you both, Yes, Falcon Range, I didn't know about the footwork thing, but another friend had a talk with me last night, and I will practice it from now on, the crowding my knee, is actually a problem, he's always done it, and can actually shove you over, trying to crowd you. but we will work on it... Ruby Star, I have been practicing the drops and sits away from the heel work, but you bring up something I didn't know, that I shall try using, chucking the food a short distance to speed him up.. I get what you are saying, will have a go...

I know what you are saying about the turns... I keep telling myself to slow down..

[aussielover]

I also have quite a lazy dog.

I vary her rewards- sometimes a toy, ball or tug and sometimes food. Some days she is more in the mood for toys and play, although she's always food motivated!

I like to play the 2 food game to rev her up or tease her with a piece of food.

I do agility not obedience though so not sure if the same principles apply.

I think my dog just doesn't have the right drive for pure obedience work. Agility is different because the nature of it alone excites most d

[dragonwoman]

a short video of me working with milo

My immediate reaction is you are not moving briskly with purpose. Dogs like to "join in". If you are tentative they will not be inspired. Tone of voice is flat too. You have to pretend work is the best thing ever. One thing you always have with you (apart from your body language) and can use is your voice tone, you can let your dog know it is on the right track through a heeling pattern. I don't mean squealing around the ring either, but women are great when it comes to using good voice tone. And if a wheel falls off, it is only points off, deep breath, start again as if nothing has happened and you can still pass and end up with a happy dog. And if your heel command has become a switch off with bad connotations, change it!! Good luck, he is a lovely dog!!