Why Don't Parents Teach Their Kids How To Treat Dogs?

[mel_]

Re: Muslims and Dogs: http://www.islamicconcern.com/dogs.asp

Traditionally, dogs have been seen as impure, and the Islamic legal tradition has developed several injunctions that warn Muslims against most contact with dogs. Unfortunately, many Muslims have used this view to justify the abuse and neglect of dogs, even though cruelty contradicts the Qur'an's view that all animals form "communities like you." We are pleased to present several articles examining the place of dogs in Islam. (...)

It appears that people of this religion MAY be more likely to view dogs a unclean or whatever as their religion seems to imply that they are/may be. Why does everybody always hit the roof when statements regarding people's nationality or religion are made? People constantly make general statements about groups of people, is it suddenly illegal to do so if they are Muslim/black/somehow "different"?

You're right there, traditionally Muslims do see dogs as dirty and evil, particularly black dogs. My parents are Malaysian and over there the main religion is Muslim. When we were staying at my cousins there recently, a technician came in the house to fix something and he didn't see their dog... You should've seen his reaction when it jumped on him. He was absolutely mortified, screamed and recoiled.

Edit: their dog is a tiny, harmless shiht tzu too.

Edited January 29, 2013 by mel20890

[Guest Maeby Fünke]

I have twice encountered some Muslim children (who were part of a larger group of Muslims) who ran at and screamed at my Pug on the beach... Different lot of people each time, but both called my Pug a "rat" and a "Pitbull"... So, I'd say their culture has some kind of issue with dogs LOL.

There's such a thing as a Muslim culture, hey? You learn something every day. I need to tell my Australian-born Muslim co-worker about her issues with dogs...

Do you live under a rock or what? :laugh:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2010/aug/08/fear-of-dogs-muslims

Sarfraz Manzoor

The Guardian, Sunday 8 August 2010 20.59 BST

"Dogs: face to face with my worst enemy"

Many Muslims, growing up in devout households, are taught that dogs are dirty and scary. So could Sarfraz Manzoor learn to love Cookie the bulldog?

I don't like dogs. I find them frightening and unpredictable; I don't like their panting, drooling ways and I feel uncomfortable not being able to tell which dog is friendly and which wants to chew off my arm. I prefer species that appreciate amusing word play and the concept of irony. But in Britain, to be a dog-hater is to admit to an unforgivable perversion. There is no socially acceptable way, I have learned, to recoil in horror when someone tries to plonk their pooch on to my lap. And now, on top of all that, I find myself living with a woman who has a very different attitude to dogs – she adores them – and she has a dream that one day the Manzoor household could include the pitter-patter of doggy paws. I love my girlfriend, but can I also learn to love dogs?

A walk in the park, for the dog fearer, is no walk in the park. I am in Clissold park in north London. In almost every way it is a perfect day – a pleasant, warm morning, the last few clouds scooting across a bright blue sky – but as usual my reverie is shattered by the sight of dogs charging across the park. They scamper and dart, followed by owners hurling moist wooden sticks. Waiting to meet me in the park's cafe is Louise Glazebrook, a dog behaviourist who runs the Darling Dogs company. "Dog anxiety can be something that is transmitted down from parents to children," she tells me. I am not listening as my attention is on the giant Bernese mountain dog that is dawdling past us. Once it has safely slipped away I start listening again. "Sometimes it can be one particular thing that triggers a fear of dogs," Glazebrook says, "like teeth or saliva or the dog's mouth, so I want you to think about why exactly you don't like dogs."

When I was at school, I associated dogs with skinheads

Well, it started in childhood. Growing up in a Muslim household, I was told dogs were dirty – their saliva was unclean and the angels would not visit any house with a dog for that reason. When I saw any on the streets, I either froze with fear or ran in terror. When I was at school in the 80s, I associated dogs with skinheads; round where we lived, the racists delighted in unleashing their alsatians whenever they saw brown-skinned boys like me. Dogs may have been man's best friend, but they were an Asian's worst enemy.

Twenty-five years on and dogs can still provoke extreme reactions. "The worst reaction is from Hassidic Jews and African Muslim women," says Glazebrook. "Walking with a bulldog, it sometimes feels like I am waving a knife around. One time I saw three teachers swoop and push 20 Asian school children up against a wall while they waited for Cookie – who was on a lead and ignoring the fracas – walk past them."

"I can see why you'd think that was an over-reaction," I say, while secretly thinking I would also have been flat against the wall with the terrified children. "So what can I do to try to beat my dog anxiety?" I ask.

"Tomorrow I am going to introduce you to Cookie, my English bulldog, who I think can help you," she says. "But before that, there is somewhere I want you to go."

The No 344 bus deposits me outside Battersea Dogs & Cats Home and I follow the red paw prints to the reception, where Lisa is waiting to meet me. She has agreed to show me round and introduce me to some of its inhabitants.

It takes an average of four weeks for a dog to be re-homed and almost half of the 350 dogs at Battersea are staffordshire bull terriers. Lisa gamely tries to assure me these dogs are not brutal beasts, but I am not convinced. As I walk along the corridor they look amiable enough with tails wagging, and their sad eyes do break my heart ever so slightly. But this sadness could simply be because they have calculated the nutritional value of tucking into my lower arm and decided it's not worth the effort. Phil Collins's Against All Odds is being piped into the kennels. "Haven't these poor mutts suffered enough?" I ask Lisa.

She suggests I step into a kennel to meet Fuji, a staffordshire bull terrier. I notice a half-chewed tennis ball lying on the floor and politely decline. The longer I spend walking around the kennels, the more agitated I become. When the dogs are quiet it is not so bad, but when the corridors ring with an infernal chorus of barking I reach for the exit, relieved there are metal bars between me and the dogs.

'Never look a dog straight in the eyes'

The following day, I'm in Springfield park in north-east London. Tennis players gently lob balls, joggers stretch their legs, rowers glide along the river Lea. I am here to meet Bobby, a professional dog walker who is coming with 14 dogs. He arrives in a fire engine-red Astra estate and out they spill: labradors and rottweilers, Tibetan terriers and west highland terriers, staffordshire bull terriers and Jack Russells all heading towards the grassland, where Bobby releases them to scamper free. This is the moment I had feared, but the dogs are all very well-behaved; I had been expecting them to prowl and poke around me, but they mostly happily play in the grass. It feels peaceful, but I am still tense, as if caught in a minefield.

"With dogs, making direct eye contact is seen as a challenge," says Bobby, "so never look a dog straight in the eyes." This sounds like advice that could be employed more generally for anyone living in Hackney. I watch the dogs and, occasionally, one of them sidles up to me and has a sniff. "You're doing great," says Bobby. "Do you think you'd like to groom my rottweiler Ronnie?" I've had better offers, but I reluctantly agree. I take the brush and cautiously start rubbing the dog's back. I can feel the rippled muscles under the skin as I slide the brush down his coat. This is the closest I have ever been to a dog, but Bobby wants more: "I think you should have a go at walking the dogs."

I take the leads and loop them into my hand. The power of the dogs as they begin moving makes it feel like they are taking me for a walk, not the other way round. It seems as if I am being dragged along the park, a waterless version of jet-skiing, slightly scary and very thrilling. "Are there any Muslim dog-walkers?" I ask Bobby. "None I know of," he says. "Do you know any Muslims who own dogs?" He doesn't, but that doesn't surprise me. Mainstream Islamic thought is not keen on dogs, hence the recent reports in certain rabid sections of the press about Muslim bus drivers refusing to allow guide dogs on board their vehicles. As it happens, guide dogs have even been allowed into mosques, but it is true that some of the stories from the time of the Prophet Muhammad suggest that dogs are unclean.

When one woman I speak to converted to Islam four years ago, she found the issue of dogs very difficult to reconcile with her new faith. "I have two dogs and I could not understand how Muslims don't get the dog thing," she says. "I think there is much significance in God being 'dog' backwards – dogs have a lot to teach us about loyalty and unconditional love. A strong relationship with a dog is a truly profound experience."

Cookie starts looking almost benign

The next day, my last in Dogland. It is time to meet Cookie. She is a three-year-old English bulldog, white as flour with large, fleshy jowls and wearing a union flag collar. In the past, Cookie would have made me shiver with terror, but as my last challenge I will be taking her for a walk.

Glazebrook explains the correct way to approach a dog. "Don't put your hand on top of their head," she says. "That way they can't see it. Be less threatening and stroke them under the chin." She asks how the last few days have been. "I've realised that one of the reasons I hated dogs is that I am scared of them," I tell her, an argument that is somewhat undermined by the sound of Cookie snoring loudly in the corner. "I worry they may leap up and start attacking," I continue as Cookie wakes up, rolls on her back and starts waggling her legs in the airs, trying to scratch her back.

Glazebrook straps a lead on to Cookie and we head out towards the street. It feels a little uneasy at first, but slowly I learn to control the lead and then something strange happens – Cookie stops looking frightening and begins to appear almost benign. I start to think her wrinkly face is rather attractive and I admire how patient she has been with the quivering wreck who has been taking her for a walk. When it is time for photographs, I find that stroking her back and scratching the back of her neck does not feel quite as scary as I had expected.

The walk is over and I say goodbye to Cookie and Glazebrook. My time in the world of the dog-lover is at an end. I feel I understand dogs better and now realise that my antipathy towards them was rooted mostly in unfamiliarity, which led to fear. In believing the media scare-stories about dangerous dogs and stereotyping all dogs as potential killers, I had done to dogs what the rabid rightwing press does to Muslims.

When I return home I tell my girlfriend that I have spent the last two days grooming rottweilers, taking eight dogs for a walk and bonding with a bulldog. "So does that mean we may, one day, be able to get a dog?" she asks, her face filled with expectation. "Maybe," I reply.

Maybe you should have that talk with you friend... You never know, you might learn something :p

Edited January 29, 2013 by Maeby Fünke

[kitkatswing]

Ive had two totally different experiences with children and my JRT,... At our local "Trash and Trasure" market: One boy, around 8 I would say, saw my dog, who was standing in front of me, in his harness, not payiong attention to anything. He came over and went to kick Maui, in front of my eyes. I managed to pull him out of the way and let out the loudest yell. (along the lines of "Oi, if you EVER go to kick my dog again, it will be your last time".... Meanwhile everyone else around me is crapping themselves (Im little, but have a powerful voice when needed) and the kid shrunk into his parents, who said nothing!!! ARGH! The little sod is so lucky he didnt connect with my dog, I would have smacked him myself.

Totally opposite though, a little girl saw Maui and cooed with excitement. Her mother then said to her "if you want ot pat you have to ask the owner first, then you have to show the dog your hand so he can have a little sniff" She was just an adorable little girl, Maui loved the attention, that was one smart parent and one little lady who will grow up appreciating dogs.

[Dame Aussie]

Ive had two totally different experiences with children and my JRT,... At our local "Trash and Trasure" market: One boy, around 8 I would say, saw my dog, who was standing in front of me, in his harness, not payiong attention to anything. He came over and went to kick Maui, in front of my eyes. I managed to pull him out of the way and let out the loudest yell. (along the lines of "Oi, if you EVER go to kick my dog again, it will be your last time".... Meanwhile everyone else around me is crapping themselves (Im little, but have a powerful voice when needed) and the kid shrunk into his parents, who said nothing!!! ARGH! The little sod is so lucky he didnt connect with my dog, I would have smacked him myself.

OMG ! I would have done the same! If anyone kicked my dog they'd get a kick back. Unbelievable that the parents did nothing!

[cnsunshine]

Ive had two totally different experiences with children and my JRT,... At our local "Trash and Trasure" market: One boy, around 8 I would say, saw my dog, who was standing in front of me, in his harness, not payiong attention to anything. He came over and went to kick Maui, in front of my eyes. I managed to pull him out of the way and let out the loudest yell. (along the lines of "Oi, if you EVER go to kick my dog again, it will be your last time".... Meanwhile everyone else around me is crapping themselves (Im little, but have a powerful voice when needed) and the kid shrunk into his parents, who said nothing!!! ARGH! The little sod is so lucky he didnt connect with my dog, I would have smacked him myself.

OMG ! I would have done the same! If anyone kicked my dog they'd get a kick back. Unbelievable that the parents did nothing!

Absolutely, I would crack it if someone intentionally hurt my dog.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Some Chinese people have real issues with dogs - there are a lot of Chinese people buying up in my suburb and they cross the road or recoil in horror as I walk my little dogs along - I asked a Chinese colleague why? She said they were brought up to believe every dog carried rabies and was diseased so to give them a wide berth. Knowing that, I wonder why they eat them?

It isn't all Chinese people, one of my friends is from Hong Kong and she loves dogs.

Edited February 17, 2013 by dogmad

[rubiton]

I was walking the two dogs up to teh shop the other day and there was a parent with about 4 kids. One of the older ones saw hte dogs and started running and w quickly told by the parent if he wanted to pat the dog he had to ask me and not run. I was pretty impressed and pointed them towards the well behaved older dog (the two older kids did then pat the younger dog who still triedto stand on two legs - well ok he tried to jump up but was stuck when I held back on the lead and amazingly behaved himself for the rest of the walk).

And other kids have asked before at the shop so its good the lessons are getting out there for kids who obvioulsy dont have dogs at home (the parent was not a dog person from their manner but were teching the kids the right thing).

[huga]

Maybe it's where I live, maybe it's because I have kids of my own, maybe I'm just lucky - but I have never really had an issue with kids and my dogs. Sid gets walked twice a day (and I live in a tourist town, so it gets crazy busy) and most people with kids are super polite and will ask to pat him.

[Tapua]

I get that other cultures are scared of dogs for what ever cultural or re-life horror experience they have had. I get that kids inherit their parents attiudes to pets be that dogs, cats or horses. I get that parents dont know what to teach their kids about dogs - regardless of culture. I went to a work conference a couple of weeks ago where it was explained that the Sudanese community are terrified of dogs because in the Sadan rabies infected dogs were used by the miliary to attack and terrorise the community. In the Muslim community thier culture required the person to wash their hands & clothes 7 time after contact with canine saliva. While Islam is not my culture I can appreciate it would suck if I was a Muslim mum with a few kids and had to wash myself and the kids clothes 7 times because a dog licked me & my kids.

Would I tolerate a kid kicking, yelling at or showing aggression to my dog - of course not. Most of us have reasonable skill at quickly responding to our dogs behaviour. I see no reason not to respopnd as quickly with a child. I would pull my dog behind me and sternly say pointing at the approaching child STOP - NO!. As soon as the kid stopped I would drop my attiude and be friendly.

I did have a child about 5 rush at me and my dog and I used this technique. The child stopped immediately it was very effective. The parent came racing up to grab the child who had got away from her when she wasnt looking. I smiled at mum and said I was preventing an incident with your child and my dog. She was fine about it. The child was a bit overwhelmed. I explained to mum that rushing up to a person with a dog without asking the owners permission and giving the owner and the dog time to get ajusted to her presence is an unsafe way to approach a dog. The mother agreed and apologised, she had never considered that. Mum told her kid to never approach a dog without asking permission and never to run. The kid didnt want to pat my dog then which was fine with me but I think the opportunity to educate was better than ranting at the kid or parent.

Did I feel like I could rant .... yep. I could have chocked the little shyte But I have a live and let live approach - everyone doesnt 'have to love my dogs' but they can treat them with respect - I dont 'have to love their kids' but I can treat then with respect too.

The 'Point ... say No Stop!' method worked for me. It might for others who are walking their dogs in the communtiy.

Edited February 18, 2013 by Tapua

[ann21]

Thanks everyone for their input. Not sure if this is on topic anymore but I don't think culture had anything to do with the incident. The child in question was Asian, not scared of dogs but just being a bully really. Still its been interesting to read about how to deal with people from cultures who treat dogs differently. Tapua: thanks for the tip. I think it works (because it stopped the kid and got another to start asking me questions) and will use it in the future if I encounter something similar again.