Rare Or Not Recognsed Colours

[BlackJaq]

I agree. It would be easy to fake document a unreg dog in order to 'add' a new (or extinct) colour back into the breed. A US breeder has been accused of doing that with some brindle GSD's- that apparently cropped up in a litter of normal coloured parents (forget exact details) thing is though...brindle doesn't/can't hide!!!!

These days that could be easily verified by requiring parentage DNA testing for such an unusual occurance.

sure- but not when the new colour was introduced several generations back and not recorded accurately ;)

This is actually a really interesting topic, there was a study done on the origin of the blue Weims, there are ways of determining some of these things but they are not fast or cheap and people will still argue, even if their position is not backed by scientific findings. I can't seem to find a link to the original study at the moment but there is lot of info here, although they are obviously blue supporters ;)

http://www.blueweimaranertoday.com/articles/genetic-study-of-blue-weimaraners/

One in a billion odds make a mutation sound extremely unlikely to me, but mutation is pretty much ALWAYS used to explain away colours introduced by cross breeding ;)

Edited January 30, 2013 by BlackJaq

[WExtremeG]

I agree. It would be easy to fake document a unreg dog in order to 'add' a new (or extinct) colour back into the breed. A US breeder has been accused of doing that with some brindle GSD's- that apparently cropped up in a litter of normal coloured parents (forget exact details) thing is though...brindle doesn't/can't hide!!!!

These days that could be easily verified by requiring parentage DNA testing for such an unusual occurance.

sure- but not when the new colour was introduced several generations back and not recorded accurately ;)

Yes, hence the wording 'these days' ;)

edited to add little winky eye, lol.

not sure what you're getting at?

anyone can fake a pedigree on some generations back and then "surprise!" a new colour pops up! Parentage verified yep, Grandparents verified yep! maybe even Great Grandparents...but beyond that...well you get the point.

Saw it happen with a (another US story) Tobiano Arabian mare lol needless to say it lost it's papers and I believe the stud and dam also lost theirs *(along with their lines).

And I was only talking about colours and patterns that didn't already exist in the breed- not one's that were already there.

Edited January 30, 2013 by WExtremeG

[Diva]

I am wondering if the dun in Greyhounds might have been a spontaneous mutation, as apparently they all trace back to one dog. It seems unlikely to me that the Grey people would have cross bred with anything as it was all purpose breeding and nothing else did the job better (unless perhaps a bit of Whippet - seems unlikely still). Perhaps one of the Greyhound enthusiasts will know.

[Diva]

I agree. It would be easy to fake document a unreg dog in order to 'add' a new (or extinct) colour back into the breed. A US breeder has been accused of doing that with some brindle GSD's- that apparently cropped up in a litter of normal coloured parents (forget exact details) thing is though...brindle doesn't/can't hide!!!!

not sure what you're getting at?

anyone can fake a pedigree on some generations back and then "surprise!" a new colour pops up! Parentage verified yep, Grandparents verified yep! maybe even Great Grandparents...but beyond that...well you get the point.

Saw it happen with a (another US story) Tobiano Arabian mare lol needless to say it lost it's papers and I believe the stud and dam also lost theirs *(along with their lines).

And I was only talking about colours and patterns that didn't already exist in the breed- not one's that were already there.

I was going by your original post that brindle 'doesn't/can't hide' in GSDs?? It can in many breeds, in mine KB dominant blacks and ee reds can be brindle and not have it visually expressed, but if you are right and it doesn't/can't hide in GSDs I can't see how it could, umm, hide for several generations and then pop up. I think it probably could as I can't see why the recessive black in GSD's wouldn't mask it, but I was just going by your words. Anyway I'll back out slowly now, :laugh:

[WoofnHoof]

Yes to clarify I'm only referring to colours which have always existed in the breed and were simply not selected for due to fashion or personal preference at the time standards were written, thinking of white GSDs and parti poodles etc.

Breeds which have had unexpected colours crop up would require further investigation as to the verifiable origins, you see it in horses sometimes with a palomino suddenly appearing from a line of chestnuts, genetically improbable WRT spontaneous mutation, the likelihood there is that a guilty party has jumped the fence lol :) No doubt the same occurs in dogs so there would need to be some sort of agreement that the colour has appeared enough times in different lines to be likely to be endemic to the breed and not an anomaly. Even without DNA this could be done by collating enough records showing a repeated occurrence, assuming there are enough breeders who admit to mismarks/odd colours appearing in their lines.

[Rebanne]

I am wondering if the dun in Greyhounds might have been a spontaneous mutation, as apparently they all trace back to one dog. It seems unlikely to me that the Grey people would have cross bred with anything as it was all purpose breeding and nothing else did the job better (unless perhaps a bit of Whippet - seems unlikely still). Perhaps one of the Greyhound enthusiasts will know.

Have to get Greytmate or GapVic to answer this one. It's quite rare and does not, AFAIK, exsist in the showbred lines.

[Diva]

I am wondering if the dun in Greyhounds might have been a spontaneous mutation, as apparently they all trace back to one dog. It seems unlikely to me that the Grey people would have cross bred with anything as it was all purpose breeding and nothing else did the job better (unless perhaps a bit of Whippet - seems unlikely still). Perhaps one of the Greyhound enthusiasts will know.

Have to get Greytmate or GapVic to answer this one. It's quite rare and does not, AFAIK, exsist in the showbred lines.

I hadn't realised it didn't exist in show lines until someone mentioned it in another thread, I had assumed they were part of the old gene pool. Apparently not though.

[Rebanne]

I am wondering if the dun in Greyhounds might have been a spontaneous mutation, as apparently they all trace back to one dog. It seems unlikely to me that the Grey people would have cross bred with anything as it was all purpose breeding and nothing else did the job better (unless perhaps a bit of Whippet - seems unlikely still). Perhaps one of the Greyhound enthusiasts will know.

Have to get Greytmate or GapVic to answer this one. It's quite rare and does not, AFAIK, exsist in the showbred lines.

I hadn't realised it didn't exist in show lines until someone mentioned it in another thread, I had assumed they were part of the old gene pool. Apparently not though.

who knows where it has popped up from, not saying it doesn't exsist in the showbred, just never seen or heard of one. It is rare in the racebred of which there are hundreds of thosuands world wide it would be so much rarer in the showlines. I think it is a mutant, same as the white spotted dogs. I think they all go back to the same line as well.

[WExtremeG]

I agree. It would be easy to fake document a unreg dog in order to 'add' a new (or extinct) colour back into the breed. A US breeder has been accused of doing that with some brindle GSD's- that apparently cropped up in a litter of normal coloured parents (forget exact details) thing is though...brindle doesn't/can't hide!!!!

not sure what you're getting at?

anyone can fake a pedigree on some generations back and then "surprise!" a new colour pops up! Parentage verified yep, Grandparents verified yep! maybe even Great Grandparents...but beyond that...well you get the point.

Saw it happen with a (another US story) Tobiano Arabian mare lol needless to say it lost it's papers and I believe the stud and dam also lost theirs *(along with their lines).

And I was only talking about colours and patterns that didn't already exist in the breed- not one's that were already there.

I was going by your original post that brindle 'doesn't/can't hide' in GSDs?? It can in many breeds, in mine KB dominant blacks and ee reds can be brindle and not have it visually expressed, but if you are right and it doesn't/can't hide in GSDs I can't see how it could, umm, hide for several generations and then pop up. I think it probably could as I can't see why the recessive black in GSD's wouldn't mask it, but I was just going by your words. Anyway I'll back out slowly now, :laugh:

okay, then- as far as I know they weren't black, but your standard blk and tan- mum may have had a bit of brindling on her* I can't remember all details as it was long ago but there were HUGE questions raised relating to the validity of their pedigree (or even if they had a pedigree) can't quite remember- but ofcourse they were marketed as "Purebred RARE GSD's.

Brindle was in the breed, but became extinct- interestingly this breeder also breeds other RARE coloured GSD's.

I'll see if I can dig it up again...

[Rebanne]

I hadn't realised it didn't exist in show lines until someone mentioned it in another thread, I had assumed they were part of the old gene pool. Apparently not though.

All greyhounds come from the same gene pool, my show bred bitch had a longer pedigree history then my racebred dog. People just took some dogs into a couple of different directions.

[german_shep_fan]

I agree. It would be easy to fake document a unreg dog in order to 'add' a new (or extinct) colour back into the breed. A US breeder has been accused of doing that with some brindle GSD's- that apparently cropped up in a litter of normal coloured parents (forget exact details) thing is though...brindle doesn't/can't hide!!!!

These days that could be easily verified by requiring parentage DNA testing for such an unusual occurance.

sure- but not when the new colour was introduced several generations back and not recorded accurately ;)

Yes, hence the wording 'these days' ;)

edited to add little winky eye, lol.

not sure what you're getting at?

anyone can fake a pedigree on some generations back and then "surprise!" a new colour pops up! Parentage verified yep, Grandparents verified yep! maybe even Great Grandparents...but beyond that...well you get the point.

Saw it happen with a (another US story) Tobiano Arabian mare lol needless to say it lost it's papers and I believe the stud and dam also lost theirs *(along with their lines).

And I was only talking about colours and patterns that didn't already exist in the breed- not one's that were already there.

Brindle has always been a colour of the gsd, it was one of the originals along with white. A very unpopular opinion but I don't care how it has been introduced back, I'm just glad it is back. I agree with woofnhoof if colours are occurring naturally and don't cause health issues I don't believe they should be 'selectively bred out' just cause those who make the standard don't like them.

[Dame Aussie]

I agree. It would be easy to fake document a unreg dog in order to 'add' a new (or extinct) colour back into the breed. A US breeder has been accused of doing that with some brindle GSD's- that apparently cropped up in a litter of normal coloured parents (forget exact details) thing is though...brindle doesn't/can't hide!!!!

These days that could be easily verified by requiring parentage DNA testing for such an unusual occurance.

sure- but not when the new colour was introduced several generations back and not recorded accurately ;)

Yes, hence the wording 'these days' ;)

edited to add little winky eye, lol.

not sure what you're getting at?

anyone can fake a pedigree on some generations back and then "surprise!" a new colour pops up! Parentage verified yep, Grandparents verified yep! maybe even Great Grandparents...but beyond that...well you get the point.

Saw it happen with a (another US story) Tobiano Arabian mare lol needless to say it lost it's papers and I believe the stud and dam also lost theirs *(along with their lines).

And I was only talking about colours and patterns that didn't already exist in the breed- not one's that were already there.

Brindle has always been a colour of the gsd, it was one of the originals along with white. A very unpopular opinion but I don't care how it has been introduced back, I'm just glad it is back. I agree with woofnhoof if colours are occurring naturally and don't cause health issues I don't believe they should be 'selectively bred out' just cause those who make the standard don't like them.

I agree.

[WExtremeG]

I agree. It would be easy to fake document a unreg dog in order to 'add' a new (or extinct) colour back into the breed. A US breeder has been accused of doing that with some brindle GSD's- that apparently cropped up in a litter of normal coloured parents (forget exact details) thing is though...brindle doesn't/can't hide!!!!

These days that could be easily verified by requiring parentage DNA testing for such an unusual occurance.

sure- but not when the new colour was introduced several generations back and not recorded accurately ;)

Yes, hence the wording 'these days' ;)

edited to add little winky eye, lol.

not sure what you're getting at?

anyone can fake a pedigree on some generations back and then "surprise!" a new colour pops up! Parentage verified yep, Grandparents verified yep! maybe even Great Grandparents...but beyond that...well you get the point.

Saw it happen with a (another US story) Tobiano Arabian mare lol needless to say it lost it's papers and I believe the stud and dam also lost theirs *(along with their lines).

And I was only talking about colours and patterns that didn't already exist in the breed- not one's that were already there.

Brindle has always been a colour of the gsd, it was one of the originals along with white. A very unpopular opinion but I don't care how it has been introduced back, I'm just glad it is back. I agree with woofnhoof if colours are occurring naturally and don't cause health issues I don't believe they should be 'selectively bred out' just] cause those who make the standard don't like them.

Yes, I acknowledged that. It was how it made a 'comeback' from extinction which raised the questions...and anyone would think that you're approving to falsify a line for the sake of a colour...?

Edited January 30, 2013 by WExtremeG

[Bjelkier]

I guess since I'm new to the whole shebang I can't contribute much, but I know that full biscuit samoyeds are recognised in the USA but not here.

Shame, I actually really like them. But I do wonder what, if any, genetic faults may be related to the colouration. Hmm.

As far as I know there are no genetic faults related to the biscuit colourings. In fact a lot of breeders like the colouring as the coat tends to be harsher in texture.

There is some method to the maddness when it comes to the colouring of Samoyeds. You have to go back and look at the history of the breed.

Taken from "The Savvy Samoyed"

"They (Kilburn Scots) began breeding for consistant and recognised type in 1896. They decided to make the white coat the breeds benchmark (there was no other medium sized white show dog with a long coat), and exclude the brown, black and spotted coated dogs that were sometimes seen in Siberia. The majority of Samoyeds found there, however, were white. It is said that there was at least one black and white champion but the coloured dogs sometimes showed mongrel traits"

and this:

Taken from "The Samoyed Today"

"Again the group subdivides, dependant on their tribe, and there are fundamental differences. Some were parti coloured, black and white as owned by the Ostiaks, while others were tan, or tan and sable, wolf grey and red. Some present day thinking suggests that some of the dogs could even have been Lapphunds. The Samoyeds coming from the Kara or White Sea areas were always white, cream or biscuit shaded. Basically therefore the parti coloured dogs from the southern areas were used mostly as reindeer herders and in the northern parts the white dogs were used as hunting and sledge dogs. A tribe name Bjelkier means white animal that breeds white."

A dog used for hunting in Arctic regions would be better served being as pale as possible for camouflage.

The only countries that allow the full biscuit are America and Canada, every other standard calls for Pure white, cream or white with biscuit. (The basic colour to be white with a few biscuit markings.) Should never give the impression of being pale brown.

You can see from all that why the full biscuit dog was excluded from the standard. Even today they often get mistaken for other breeds, such as the cream Finnish Lapphund.

Full biscuit Samoyeds are rare and most of them seem to have at least a little bit of white on them in some places.

You also have to remember that most Samoyeds are born white and the colour shows up over time. Take my youngest male for example. He was born white and has slowly been getting darker and darker. I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up mostly biscuit (like others in his line) when he's older.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Bjelkier

[german_shep_fan]

I agree. It would be easy to fake document a unreg dog in order to 'add' a new (or extinct) colour back into the breed. A US breeder has been accused of doing that with some brindle GSD's- that apparently cropped up in a litter of normal coloured parents (forget exact details) thing is though...brindle doesn't/can't hide!!!!

These days that could be easily verified by requiring parentage DNA testing for such an unusual occurance.

sure- but not when the new colour was introduced several generations back and not recorded accurately ;)

Yes, hence the wording 'these days' ;)

edited to add little winky eye, lol.

not sure what you're getting at?

anyone can fake a pedigree on some generations back and then "surprise!" a new colour pops up! Parentage verified yep, Grandparents verified yep! maybe even Great Grandparents...but beyond that...well you get the point.

Saw it happen with a (another US story) Tobiano Arabian mare lol needless to say it lost it's papers and I believe the stud and dam also lost theirs *(along with their lines).

And I was only talking about colours and patterns that didn't already exist in the breed- not one's that were already there.

Brindle has always been a colour of the gsd, it was one of the originals along with white. A very unpopular opinion but no i don't care how it has been introduced back, I'm just glad it is back. [/b]I agree with woofnhoof if colours are occurring naturally and don't cause health issues I don't believe they should be 'selectively bred out' just] cause those who make the standard don't like them.

Yes, I acknowledged that. It was how it made a 'comeback' from extinction which raised the questions...and anyone would think that you're approving to falsify a line for the sake of a colour...?

There has been picture proof over generations of bridle colouring on otherwise b/t sheps in the US for a while now so I don't personally believe it ever died out completely. I don't know the breeder accused so cant comment on that, maybe they crossbred maybe they didn't, Though no it doesn't bother me that much, its in the US and the colour hence the dogs will never be accepted here anyway. They van do what they want, same as everyone, none of my business. More important things to worry about. I just personally feel its odd that such a hooha is made over colours that are not 'of the standard'. No good dog is a bad colour :D

[WExtremeG]

Brindle comeback story here: http://www.k9-pines.com/germanshepherds_Brindle.html

and thread to go with it: http://www.pedigreedatabase.com/forum.read?mnr=583859-brindle-gsd--did-not-think-this-was-possible

Edited January 30, 2013 by WExtremeG

[german_shep_fan]

Brindle comeback story here: http://www.k9-pines.com/germanshepherds_Brindle.html

Most interesting. Thank you for sharing! :)

[WoofnHoof]

Yes the US tend to make their own rules lol! Interestingly because the Australian Stud books accepts TBs that are registered in the US we are now having a bit of an influx of coloured thoroughbreds in the racing scene, Winning Colours Farm being the main importer, not sure if they are likely to actually win anything but they are awfully pretty and it's fun watching the TB purists going into conniptions over them :laugh:

ETA link

Edited January 30, 2013 by WoofnHoof

[BlackJaq]

There are also coloured STBs popping up now though not selling too well from what I can see. TBs on the other hand seem to be pretty popular.

I agree about the US making up their own rules/colours, it grates on me a little because I love all the German breeds (dogs as well as horses) and they are frequently a target of this behaviour :p Call me old fashioned

Edited January 30, 2013 by BlackJaq

[WoofnHoof]

There are also coloured STBs popping up now though not selling too well from what I can see. TBs on the other hand seem to be pretty popular.

I agree about the US making up their own rules/colours, it grates on me a little because I love all the German breeds (dogs as well as horses) and they are frequently a target of this behaviour :p Call me old fashioned

Lol yeah they seem to have a registry for anything over there :laugh: Yeah the pinto STBs have been around a while they aren't too popular for racing but some can find homes after racing, unfortunately they aren't a popular breed for pleasure/performance so there is a lot of waste

That is one thing I found interesting with the reactions to the coloured TBs because of the performance horse market many people believe that a coloured TB has a better chance of finding a home after racing, whether or not that's true I'm not sure certainly the pretty ones have a better chance as hacks etc but they are still TBs underneath so not for every rider.

I think if acceptance of certain colours will bring new people into breeds and widen the gene pool (within that breed) then it is a good thing whether it's horses or dogs or whatever, you will always get dodgy breeders who will cash in on a fad no matter what it is. I want a white shep one day, I don't want to get one from a dodgy breeder churning out rare whites for the sake of it I want one from a good breeder who has health tested stock. Luckily we do have people breeding some lovely whites in this country, they went against the grain and some started their own registry some started the push for the ANKC to accept them (as another breed which makes no sense to me since they all come from GSDs as far as I'm aware but anyway that's a whole other can of worms). Anyway my point is that I think if the kennel clubs are going to be stick in the muds about colours then I'd rather people breed coloured animals with quality in mind than not breed at all, because not breeding just leaves the niche available for dodgy breeders turn churn out rare colours IYKWIM?