Rare Or Not Recognsed Colours

[Weasels]

Excellent post from an earlier thread on kelpie coat colours - genetically dilutes are red or black, but there are other modifiers which affect the shade. As Janba said these look genetically red due to the noses, but the modifier genes have made them a stunning smokey colour :)

Red and chocolate in Kelpies are both the brown gene so they are the same colour but when the standard was written no on knew that. Sadly many standards are genetically incorrect for colour because no one had a clue about genetics when they decided what colours to include. Chocolate in a Border Collie is brown but the colour termed red in BCs is the ee gene which is called orange/gold/yellow/cream in most other breeds.

Dog pigment can only be black, brown or the dilutions of these two colours, blue/grey or fawn/lilac (Wei colour). Hair colour can also be yellow (ee) which masks the basic pigment colour in the coat or white. All other "colours" are patterns made from combinations of these colours. The shade and intensity of any colour, including black will vary from dog to dog but they can still only be one of four basic pigment colours and anything else is a coat pattern.

This would be so much easier for everyone to follow if the colours had the same name in all breeds.

More specifically there are two types of pigment which dogs can have : Phaeomelanin a melanin pigment that causes some shade of red, orange, gold or yellow coloration and Eumelanin a melanin pigment that causes some shade of black or brown coloration.

There are a number of genes - ASIP (Agouti/A series), MC1R (E locus), TYRP1 (B locus), CBD103 (K locus) then there are a whole bunch more which cause dilutions, spots etc and some of which have not been identified at the "genetic" level. All these genes act in concert to create the "coat colour" you see in a dog - some modify the colour of the pigment, some mask it and some cause certain patterns.

Agouti causes solid tan/red, sable, solid black, black & tan colouration patterns.

MC1R causes black pigment masked causing red pigment i.e. places where Eumelanain would be expressed now have Phaeomelanin. This would mean that a black and tan dog (at the Agouti locus) would phenotypically be red and tan. If the dog would otherwise be black and carries the ee genotype the dog would likely be solid white.

Tyrp1 causes the eumelanin to be brown where it would "normally" be black.

CBD103 causes dominant solid black colouration and brindle colouration.

A really fantastic website for more information is - http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

That website is written/maintained by one of the main scientific researchers who works on coat colour in dogs.

The interactions between the genes causes some very complex colour patterns and it can often be hard to "know" which genotype causes the phenotype as many phenotypes look so similar.

*hope this is helpful/useful*

E- Chess is fawn (dilute red), she is redder than the smokeys but has similar nose colour. Also a suspected mild case of colour dilution alopecia.

Edited February 2, 2013 by TheLBD

[Jumabaar]

"Smokey" is not by any chance Weimaraner colour? This is a dilute version of liver, some call it lilac or isabella and yes, it is very much separate from blue and also fawn, not a cross thereof

ETA: http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/dilutes.html

Both liver and the dilution gene are recessive so for the dogs to breed true two dogs of this colour are bred together

In Kelpies isabella is fawn and liver is called red or brown. These do look isabella- clearly a dilute but they have brown noses- thus bbdd. I assume there are some other intensity genes that have been used as modifiers if they appear different to a fawn Kelpie.

ETA- crossing a blue and a fawn would produce blue puppies in the first generation, and then a mix of fawn and blue in litters there after.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Jumabaar

[BlackJaq]

"Smokey" is not by any chance Weimaraner colour? This is a dilute version of liver, some call it lilac or isabella and yes, it is very much separate from blue and also fawn, not a cross thereof

ETA: http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/dilutes.html

Both liver and the dilution gene are recessive so for the dogs to breed true two dogs of this colour are bred together

In Kelpies isabella is fawn and liver is called red or brown. These do look isabella- clearly a dilute but they have brown noses- thus bbdd. I assume there are some other intensity genes that have been used as modifiers if they appear different to a fawn Kelpie.

ETA- crossing a blue and a fawn would produce blue puppies in the first generation, and then a mix of fawn and blue in litters there after.

Yes, looking at the photos I do believe they are bbdd, same colour as Weimaraners.

Edited February 2, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Janba]

In Kelpies isabella is fawn and liver is called red or brown. These do look isabella- clearly a dilute but they have brown noses- thus bbdd. I assume there are some other intensity genes that have been used as modifiers if they appear different to a fawn Kelpie.

ETA- crossing a blue and a fawn would produce blue puppies in the first generation, and then a mix of fawn and blue in litters there after.

If the blue was Bb dd and crossed fawn bb dd then then on average 50%nbof the pups would be Bb dd and 50% bb dd.

[dancinbcs]

"Smokey" is not by any chance Weimaraner colour? This is a dilute version of liver, some call it lilac or isabella and yes, it is very much separate from blue and also fawn, not a cross thereof

ETA: http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/dilutes.html

Both liver and the dilution gene are recessive so for the dogs to breed true two dogs of this colour are bred together

In Kelpies isabella is fawn and liver is called red or brown. These do look isabella- clearly a dilute but they have brown noses- thus bbdd. I assume there are some other intensity genes that have been used as modifiers if they appear different to a fawn Kelpie.

ETA- crossing a blue and a fawn would produce blue puppies in the first generation, and then a mix of fawn and blue in litters there after.

Really? I have seen ee yellow/cream Kelpies described as fawn the same as breeds like Pugs, Mastiffs, etc. I have never heard the term fawn used to describe brown dilute in any other breed. The shade of any colour can vary from pale to dark but they are genetically the same colour no matter what the shade. This applies to blue, brown, isabella/lilac and ee red/yellow. Even black varies in intensity.

[Jumabaar]

In Kelpies isabella is fawn and liver is called red or brown. These do look isabella- clearly a dilute but they have brown noses- thus bbdd. I assume there are some other intensity genes that have been used as modifiers if they appear different to a fawn Kelpie.

ETA- crossing a blue and a fawn would produce blue puppies in the first generation, and then a mix of fawn and blue in litters there after.

If the blue was Bb dd and crossed fawn bb dd then then on average 50%nbof the pups would be Bb dd and 50% bb dd.

Oops. yup

"Smokey" is not by any chance Weimaraner colour? This is a dilute version of liver, some call it lilac or isabella and yes, it is very much separate from blue and also fawn, not a cross thereof

ETA: http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/dilutes.html

Both liver and the dilution gene are recessive so for the dogs to breed true two dogs of this colour are bred together

In Kelpies isabella is fawn and liver is called red or brown. These do look isabella- clearly a dilute but they have brown noses- thus bbdd. I assume there are some other intensity genes that have been used as modifiers if they appear different to a fawn Kelpie.

ETA- crossing a blue and a fawn would produce blue puppies in the first generation, and then a mix of fawn and blue in litters there after.

Really? I have seen ee yellow/cream Kelpies described as fawn the same as breeds like Pugs, Mastiffs, etc. I have never heard the term fawn used to describe brown dilute in any other breed. The shade of any colour can vary from pale to dark but they are genetically the same colour no matter what the shade. This applies to blue, brown, isabella/lilac and ee red/yellow. Even black varies in intensity.

Fawn in a Kelpie is definitely a dilute chocolate/red. http://www.hnrworkingkelpies.com/Diluted_Brown.html

ee kelpies should be called cream (although geneticists would call it red but historically it is definitely cream) and are not accepted on the main register although they do exist in WKC lines, they would be quite rare in ANKC lines because of the selection against them. I have not seen an ANKC bred ee Kelpie although I do believe that there was great drama about one prior to me getting my first pedigree Kelpie.

This has been quite a big problem overseas (I think italy or somewhere close by) where they have translated the standard wrong and then allowed WKC Kelpies onto their main register and now have creams that have been registered as fawn and fawns that dont really have a colour given to them.

Personally the smokey Kelpies just look fawn to me (bbdd) and would be accepted onto the register as such (if they were from ANKC lines). But I guess its like the red cloud Kelpies- every farmer likes to put their own personality and soul into the lines so I am happy to stick with the tradition and call them 'smokey'.

ETA- this page also highlights the different range fawn can come in http://www.hnrworkingkelpies.com/Color_Comparison.html

I really wouldnt mind if cream were allowed for breeding- all I want is for people to chose a name for a phenotype that matches the genotype to the best of their ability and stick with it. ie calling an ee dog fawn is justing going to stuff people looking at pedigrees around when they assume fawn is bbdd. Just my opinion and in Finnish Lapphunds there are a number of different terms for a fair few phenotypes so its never going to happen. But wishful thinking doesnt harm anyone.

Edited February 2, 2013 by Jumabaar