Rare Or Not Recognsed Colours

[Alyosha]

It is odd though, if you look at Pomeranians again (being the toy German Spitz) - FCI allow particolour on equal merit to solid. US standard does as well. But the UK standard and the Australian one (which seems very similar to the UK one if not the same one) allow particolour but as less desirable than solid - so if two dogs are otherwise of equal merit, the solid should always take precedence.

I've often wondered how this division has occurred. Was it a popularity thing for the UK and Australia to prefer solids? When FCI - which seems closer to country of origin for a German breed - has no preference?

Which came first?

[becks]

...... Luckily we do have people breeding some lovely whites in this country, they went against the grain and some started their own registry some started the push for the ANKC to accept them (as another breed which makes no sense to me since they all come from GSDs as far as I'm aware but anyway that's a whole other can of worms). Anyway my point is that I think if the kennel clubs are going to be stick in the muds about colours then I'd rather people breed coloured animals with quality in mind than not breed at all, because not breeding just leaves the niche available for dodgy breeders turn churn out rare colours IYKWIM?

Same thing happened with the white Cairns or West Highland White Terriers as they are now known!

[Steve]

Didn't someone say that every 5 years the breed standard comes under review? That's the time to voice an opinion! If it's in favour then they can amend it one would think.

Sounds like the American QH and Paint registry lol virtually the same horse different patterns and colours because the QH people didn't want "flashy or excessive white" :)

yes but a breed standard cant be changed unless the country of origin has done so first.

[Steve]

There are also coloured STBs popping up now though not selling too well from what I can see. TBs on the other hand seem to be pretty popular.

I agree about the US making up their own rules/colours, it grates on me a little because I love all the German breeds (dogs as well as horses) and they are frequently a target of this behaviour :p Call me old fashioned

Lol yeah they seem to have a registry for anything over there :laugh: Yeah the pinto STBs have been around a while they aren't too popular for racing but some can find homes after racing, unfortunately they aren't a popular breed for pleasure/performance so there is a lot of waste

That is one thing I found interesting with the reactions to the coloured TBs because of the performance horse market many people believe that a coloured TB has a better chance of finding a home after racing, whether or not that's true I'm not sure certainly the pretty ones have a better chance as hacks etc but they are still TBs underneath so not for every rider.

I think if acceptance of certain colours will bring new people into breeds and widen the gene pool (within that breed) then it is a good thing whether it's horses or dogs or whatever, you will always get dodgy breeders who will cash in on a fad no matter what it is. I want a white shep one day, I don't want to get one from a dodgy breeder churning out rare whites for the sake of it I want one from a good breeder who has health tested stock. Luckily we do have people breeding some lovely whites in this country, they went against the grain and some started their own registry some started the push for the ANKC to accept them (as another breed which makes no sense to me since they all come from GSDs as far as I'm aware but anyway that's a whole other can of worms). Anyway my point is that I think if the kennel clubs are going to be stick in the muds about colours then I'd rather people breed coloured animals with quality in mind than not breed at all, because not breeding just leaves the niche available for dodgy breeders turn churn out rare colours IYKWIM?

Agreed

[DogsAndTheMob]

How restrictive is the ANKC affiliation with the major registries in other countries? My interpretation of other posts is that, in countries such as the US where there are multiple registries, some secondary registries recognise parti poodles. Would it be practical for the ANKC to recognise the poodles from these registries as a second poodle breed? (In the way that "Siamese" cats bred for non-standard colours are recognised as Colour-point Shorthairs.)

This would give purchasers the option of buying parti poodles with authentic pedigrees (supported by appropriate health testing and certification) from reputable breeders... And hopefully force out the backyard breeders.

[mita]

It is odd though, if you look at Pomeranians again (being the toy German Spitz) - FCI allow particolour on equal merit to solid. US standard does as well. But the UK standard and the Australian one (which seems very similar to the UK one if not the same one) allow particolour but as less desirable than solid - so if two dogs are otherwise of equal merit, the solid should always take precedence.

I've often wondered how this division has occurred. Was it a popularity thing for the UK and Australia to prefer solids? When FCI - which seems closer to country of origin for a German breed - has no preference?

Which came first?

I think this question of 'preferences' then affecting 'standards'.... which in turn, can have 'less desirables' amongst them... is the interesting one. How much, if any, comes from a popularity thing? And how much to some reference to place (& purpose?) of origin?

It seems a shame for 'interesting' colours within a breed to be selected out if it's just an 'At One Time' popularity thing. To me, that makes periodic Reviews critical.

For example, Tibbies now are accepted in all the solid colours, shadings & partis. But I was surprised to find out that the very attractive (to me) liver or brown, was once 'not wanted'. (That's a bit like those lovely (to me) chocolate Poms which are making a 'comeback' after many decades.)

"The b-gene is the recessive allele for livercolour or brown. A puppy will only become livercoloured or brown, if both parents carries the b-gene. Earlier liver or brown was not wanted in Tibbies, but is now approved as a colour variation."

Maybe it's just me... but how could this colouring have once been 'not wanted'? Reasoning?... popularity, or some connection to place of origin?

Edited January 30, 2013 by mita

[WoofnHoof]

It is odd though, if you look at Pomeranians again (being the toy German Spitz) - FCI allow particolour on equal merit to solid. US standard does as well. But the UK standard and the Australian one (which seems very similar to the UK one if not the same one) allow particolour but as less desirable than solid - so if two dogs are otherwise of equal merit, the solid should always take precedence.

I've often wondered how this division has occurred. Was it a popularity thing for the UK and Australia to prefer solids? When FCI - which seems closer to country of origin for a German breed - has no preference?

Which came first?

I think this question of 'preferences' then affecting 'standards'.... which in turn, can have 'less desirables' amongst the... is the interesting one. How much, if any, comes from a popularity thing? And how much to some reference to place (& purpose?) of origin?

It seems a shame for 'interesting' colours within a breed to be selected out if it's just an 'At One Time' popularity thing. To me that makes periodic Reviews critical.

For example, Tibbies now are accepted in all the solid colours, shadings & partis. But I was surprised to find out that the very attractive (to me) liver or brown, was once 'not wanted'. (That's a bit like those lovely (to me) chocolate Poms which are making a 'comeback' after many decades.)

"The B-series have two alleles, and affects the color of the darker pigment. The B-gene is the allele for black pigment in coat and snout, B is dominant towards b. The b-gene is the recessive allele for livercolour or brown. A puppy will only become livercoloured or brown, if both parents carries the b-gene. Earlier liver or brown was not wanted in Tibbies, but is now approved as a colour variation."

Maybe it's just me... but how could this colouring have once been 'not wanted'? Reasoning?... popularity, or some connection to place of origin?

Maybe cos they look cute enough to gobble right up? :D

[mita]

Maybe it's just me... but how could this colouring have once been 'not wanted'? Reasoning?... popularity, or some connection to place of origin?

Maybe cos they look cute enough to gobble right up? :D

He does look like he's made out of milk chocolate, doesn't he! :)

[Greytmate]

I like the first one best Dog Geek, very rich and chocolatey. :)

The one called a chocolate parti seems to have a black nose, is it brown or black in real life? What about the blue and tan? It gets confusing as each breed uses its own names for different things.

Your orange parti has red reflecting eyes that I have seen in other breeds with the same colouring.

Greytmate, the chocolate parti is the one with the 'clown face' and definitely has a chocolate nose... the orange parti has a 'snow nose' happening, but is not ee because she was sabled as a puppy, and does have some black whiskers. She does throw cream puppies, though... so she is Ee.

The blue and tan has a blue nose...

Thanks Dog Geek, the photos make it hard to see true colour sometimes.

I am wondering if the dun in Greyhounds might have been a spontaneous mutation, as apparently they all trace back to one dog. It seems unlikely to me that the Grey people would have cross bred with anything as it was all purpose breeding and nothing else did the job better (unless perhaps a bit of Whippet - seems unlikely still). Perhaps one of the Greyhound enthusiasts will know.

Dun (bb) has been in greyhounds since pedigrees were first kept for coursing greyhounds in the 1790s, and there were some dun champions. Only successful bloodlines of greyhounds are sustained over time. For some reason, the duns became rarer. All dun greyhounds today feature a double cross of a 1950s greyhound called Rocket Jet. He was a black dog with Bb genes. For a long time before this dog, and ever since then, no dun dogs have been used for breeding. But one in three thousand of them are born bb.

I was interested in having a dun coloured greyhound, so I just had to wait until one came up. Then I got two at once. :laugh:

Woody is a solid dilute, like a weim. His parents were blue, and a blue brindle. Coconut is white and dun brindle, not dilute. One of her parents was black, one was white and brindle. She has chocolate stripes over fawn, and chocolatey brindle ticking. Woody has a dark liver nose and Coconut has a purple/liver nose.

Neither are exceptionally conformed, but they were good enough to race in Victoria.

I guess the existence of dun greyhounds in Australia, even though none have been bred with (and mine are desexed) shows how hard it is to get rid of a recessive gene if conformation/ability is the main aim and colour is totally ignored. But I have seen dun in galgos (spanish greyhounds) and apparently somebody has bred a dun litter of pets in the US. (idiots)

Edited January 30, 2013 by Greytmate

[Diva]

Thanks for the info, I think the dun are quite attractive, and one of cases where I don't really get why an original colour should not be covered by the show standard. Guess someone had a reason.

[mita]

one of cases where I don't really get why an original colour should not be covered by the show standard. Guess someone had a reason.

Wish those people would leave their reasons in writing! :)

[Greytmate]

Thanks for the info, I think the dun are quite attractive, and one of cases where I don't really get why an original colour should not be covered by the show standard. Guess someone had a reason.

Dun is allowed in the greyhound standard. But dark eyes are preferred and you won't really get that in a dun greyhound.

Show standards raise more questions than they answer sometimes. Some contain genetic impossibilities, such as a blue stafford with a black nose. Undesirable traits are sometimes called faults, sometimes disqualifications, and sometimes are unregistrable and unrecorded. Faults are undesirable and so are rare, and as such they are unique and so become desirable and risk becoming common. Then we are left wondering why they were once undesirable, and whether faults are actually problems or not.

I can see an advantage in only the breed of origin being able to make the call, but you would hope it's a country where the people behind the breed are in it for the right reasons and keep up with the genetic information that is becoming available.

[Steve]

one of cases where I don't really get why an original colour should not be covered by the show standard. Guess someone had a reason.

Wish those people would leave their reasons in writing! :)

Most of the time its not much more than personal preference of the founders. People select animals which are the ones they think look the best just as they select coat type and size etc When a breed is in development as soon as its determined that there will be a breed developed by one person or a small group of people a preliminary breed standard is put in place and often different colours are not even seen until more dogs enter the gene pool with open stud books. Its almost impossible to have a breed developed with out a plan or recipe for whats in the mix and what should be left out of the pot during selection. Then of course as the breed develops and other things turn up you will possibly have some people who want it others who don't and there then starts internal brawls and splits so the founders write in which colours will be faults. When it gets to an application for breed recognition a finalised breed standard is tendered and its basically about who has stuck it out and who gets in first. When the breed develops this way there isnt any science to it or any real reason why a colour isnt included. When you see a situation where some colours were accepted and now they arent its just as likely to be about politics as anything else but may be because certain colours have shown to cause or are accused of showing genetic issues. Of course it may also be a combination of politics and a question over health issues.

There is no doubt about it that decisions on what can be placed on the main register or what cannot be placed on any register is in the main about politics. In my opinion the decision to not allow any white boxer to ever be registered on any register in Australia was 100% about politics. Even if they wrote what their reasons were many would make little sense because they werent logical to begin with.

[BJean]

one of cases where I don't really get why an original colour should not be covered by the show standard. Guess someone had a reason.

Wish those people would leave their reasons in writing! :)

Most of the time its not much more than personal preference of the founders. People select animals which are the ones they think look the best just as they select coat type and size etc When a breed is in development as soon as its determined that there will be a breed developed by one person or a small group of people a preliminary breed standard is put in place and often different colours are not even seen until more dogs enter the gene pool with open stud books. Its almost impossible to have a breed developed with out a plan or recipe for whats in the mix and what should be left out of the pot during selection. Then of course as the breed develops and other things turn up you will possibly have some people who want it others who don't and there then starts internal brawls and splits so the founders write in which colours will be faults. When it gets to an application for breed recognition a finalised breed standard is tendered and its basically about who has stuck it out and who gets in first. When the breed develops this way there isnt any science to it or any real reason why a colour isnt included. When you see a situation where some colours were accepted and now they arent its just as likely to be about politics as anything else but may be because certain colours have shown to cause or are accused of showing genetic issues. Of course it may also be a combination of politics and a question over health issues.

There is no doubt about it that decisions on what can be placed on the main register or what cannot be placed on any register is in the main about politics. In my opinion the decision to not allow any white boxer to ever be registered on any register in Australia was 100% about politics. Even if they wrote what their reasons were many would make little sense because they werent logical to begin with.

Absolutely.

Another example is some Usa / Uk / Australian breeders' understanding of Kangal.

I'm not able to go into it because I find their scope astoundingly stupid and therefore (& evidently) it is impossible for me to write about it in a warm fuzzy way.

Edited January 30, 2013 by lilli

[becks]

It is interesting to look at the historical colours of breeds. eg the affenpinscher was used in the development of the mini schnauzer - a dog today we think of as only being black - but look back at the time they were being used to develop the minis and we see yellow dogs (possibly where the white minis came from) and there are black and tan dogs (where the black/silver came from??)

http://affenpinscher.com/Early%20Affen%20History.html

In the stud book of the PK, volume II, 1903-1907 we find registered for the first time the Affenpinscher as a separate breed. This volume has 14 entries; six Affenpinschers out of Munich, three out of Saxons, three out of the Rhineland, one out of Holland and one out of the Alsace. The colors of these first Affenpinschers are: 4 yellow, 3 red yellow, 2 black, 2 black and gray stitched (or patterned?), 1 black gray, 1 gray brown, and 1 without the color stated.

Volume IV, 1911 to 1913, showed with 44 entries of an essential upswing of the Affenpinscher breeding. That in this volume of those registered would describe "Peter v. d. Steinburg", 1772, Z.: Plank, Munich, and "Poldi v. d. Steinburg", 2460, Z.: A. Stauber, Munich, as well as "Puppi Mercedes" 1655, Z.: Mixed honestly these gave the breeding locations a strong resilience. At the top, again Munich with eighteen entries, of which most of the black are noted. Württemberg-Baden follows with eleven, Saxons with nine, Berlin with two, Hesse with two, Rhineland with an entry. The color challenge remains very far off. Red yellow were thirteen, black eleven, seven black with gray, four were red also, in addition, a gray, salt & pepper, yellow, silver-gray, dark gray, and a. m. (an unknown color)

By 1923 the color scale shows now 84 black (about 40%), red, reddish brown and similar colors 62, black brown 27, black with gray stitched 14, pfslz, (salt and pepper/black and silver) 11, gray 5 and without statements 5.

These colours apparently still crop up sometimes today.

Interestingly the short nose and underbite comes from the brussel griffon (which it had helped to develop earlier) when the BG was used after WW1 to increase the genepool of the affens.

So funny they can include a change in the face shape (they looked more like mini schnauzers with shorter faces) but the black is still the only desired colour. I can;t find any reference to why that colour is the desired one.

[SwaY]

It is interesting to look at the historical colours of breeds. eg the affenpinscher was used in the development of the mini schnauzer - a dog today we think of as only being black - but look back at the time they were being used to develop the minis and we see yellow dogs (possibly where the white minis came from) and there are black and tan dogs (where the black/silver came from??)

There are many coloured Affen's being shown O/S - The UK/AU standard only allows for black thou.

[becks]

any idea why we didn't include the other colours?

[SwaY]

any idea why we didn't include the other colours?

No idea to be honest, no one has been able to give me a straight answer.

[JulesP]

any idea why we didn't include the other colours?

No idea to be honest, no one has been able to give me a straight answer.

Some old biddy didn't like them.

[minimax]

Are pure white BC's rare?

I don't know if these are working line, or just random, but they are probably selling the white for a ridicious amount as it's POA - http://www.doggish.com.au/for-sale/1317/rare-litter-of-border-collie-purebred-puppies