Rare Or Not Recognsed Colours

[zeebie]

Maybe GSP not weis did they look anything like these pics

[BlackJaq]

One time I saw two Weims... I swear they were Weims. From a distance, there was no question in my mind. They were the right size, shape and colour. But closer up, I could just make out dilute tan markings in a fairly typical black and tan kind of pattern. Eyebrows, muzzle, paws and a bit on the chest in one, I think. It was barely visible. I didn't ask the owner if they were purebred as I didn't want to be rude, but I was scrutinising those dogs and I couldn't see any other breed in them. Looked exactly like Weims. Is this colouring known in the breed?

The tan markings show up in pure bred Weims occasionally and are supposedly a throw-back to one of the breeds involved in their creation. In the Us they call it "the mark of the hound". I have not seen them myself but they are well documented and generally accepted a pure bred, even in Germany.

At the same time Weimaraner genes seem to be very dominant so crosses of the breed can look pretty much identical in shape to pure bred dogs. The grey colour is actually the dilute version of the more common liver/red colour, dd as somebody else said. This colour is recessive and crossing a Weimaraner with a dog of any other colour will make them loose the typical grey colour.

There are also "Blue Weimaraners" in the US and much controversy surrounds them. There is some evidence that a Doberman dog may have gotten to the mother of the original dog , which resulted in one blue pup. Supporters of the colour argue that it may be a random mutation, but a study has been done on these dogs and chances of a random mutation causing the colour change are something like one in a billion. Two (base liver) grey dogs can NEVER produce a (base black) blue dog unless this random, very unlikely event occurs.

Dogs with the blue colouring can be registered and bred from in the US but not shown. They are not accepted in Germany, the country of origin, despite considerable pressure from Blue supporters. In my opinion the only reason these dogs are bred from is for money, I cannot think of another genuine reason why somebody would purposely breed miscoloured dogs and not make a move to establish their own breed, especially when the colour stems from a cross bred animal, not a natural occurrence in the breed.

Edited because I can't spell

Edited January 29, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Guest Clover]

We have a very rarely marked greyhound entering our Program today. He was imported from Ireland and is believed to be the only greyhound of this colouring in Australia - he is black with white spots. Just like this dog here:

My link

I have been looking up about dun greyhounds and came across the spotted dogs as well. Stunning and interesting markings. One I found was Acey Grey .

http://www.google.com.au/search?q=%22acey+grey%22+greyhound&hl=en&client=safari&tbo=d&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=D-YHUZuPE6aiiAf3hoHICg&ved=0CAYQ_AUoAQ&biw=1024&bih=672#biv=i|2;d|UN-3xX_YtMQtBM:

Edited January 29, 2013 by Clover

[dog geek]

I like the first one best Dog Geek, very rich and chocolatey. :)

The one called a chocolate parti seems to have a black nose, is it brown or black in real life? What about the blue and tan? It gets confusing as each breed uses its own names for different things.

Your orange parti has red reflecting eyes that I have seen in other breeds with the same colouring.

Greytmate, the chocolate parti is the one with the 'clown face' and definitely has a chocolate nose... the orange parti has a 'snow nose' happening, but is not ee because she was sabled as a puppy, and does have some black whiskers. She does throw cream puppies, though... so she is Ee.

The blue and tan has a blue nose...

[teekay]

Anne, I remember the big thread we had here about pugs. I'm not convinced that brindle is supposed to be in the breed.

Even if it is in the breed, by making them a registrable colour, there will be a lot more of them in the breed. Because black hides brindle it will take test matings to know if a black is a carrier, and because of the way the gene works, many litters will be all brindle or all fawn. Brindle is a dominant gene, so all fawn dogs are already known not to carry brindle. The gene could be eliminated from the breed if people were prepared to do that, unlike a recessive gene which would be nearly impossible to eliminate without genetic testing.

Ok confused again :D If black hides brindle, how can it be dominant. Or do you mean dominant over fawn. Even so if black is dominant over brindle how can the gene be eliminated without genetic testing?

Think of it like coats of paint. :)

A dog can have a base colour of either black or red. Then it will have a top colour of brindle, sable, or black mask or clear. So you can have a dog with a base coat of black, with a top coat of black brindle stripes. The dog will just look black, you wont see the stripes at all. But they are there and can be passed on, and if that black is mated to a red, any red puppies will all inherit the brindle black stripes over their base coat of red. Which is the visible expression of brindle.

Genetic testing is a faster way to find out genetics than the old method of doing at least two generations of test matings to red dogs.

There is info about the brindle gene here . http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/index.htm

The site is outstanding because of the way it takes this complicated subject and translates it into easy language. Makes it so much easier to understand how the genes interact with each other, and lots of photos.

Thanks GM. I sould've just gone to that site eh? :laugh: Right, now I have got my head around the white spotting gene, I will move on to brindle :D

[pepe001]

I saw what I thought was a Y with tan points. Looked exactly (and acted) like a Weimaraner but had very light tanny/grey points. Not really noticeable unless you looked but definately there. They bought from a pet shop in north Bris about a year ago and were told it was a W cross staffy. They said the mother was a Y, and had a photo of her on the cage. Were told the breeder thinks a staff jumped the fence. I commented that it may be a dobe cross and no staffy traits were noticeable. I wonder if it was from a breeder who didn't want to be known to be breeding tan points??? God, it was a beautiful dog. But I am a fan of the look of a Y.

[Ruin Maniac]

I guess since I'm new to the whole shebang I can't contribute much, but I know that full biscuit samoyeds are recognised in the USA but not here.

Shame, I actually really like them. But I do wonder what, if any, genetic faults may be related to the colouration. Hmm.

[BlackJaq]

I saw what I thought was a Y with tan points. Looked exactly (and acted) like a Weimaraner but had very light tanny/grey points. Not really noticeable unless you looked but definately there. They bought from a pet shop in north Bris about a year ago and were told it was a W cross staffy. They said the mother was a Y, and had a photo of her on the cage. Were told the breeder thinks a staff jumped the fence. I commented that it may be a dobe cross and no staffy traits were noticeable. I wonder if it was from a breeder who didn't want to be known to be breeding tan points??? God, it was a beautiful dog. But I am a fan of the look of a Y.

I would like to say that I don't think a breeder would dump puppies with tan points at the petshop and claim they are x breds but I would be lying....

Not all breeders are the same (quality wise) and when a breed gets popular you often get people jumping in on breeding them for monetary reasons. Those people do not usually waste much time doing research on "their" breed so when things like tan points cropping up happen, they might not have any idea what it is and why. Same with diseases, many simply do not know what needs to be tested for or what is an issue in the breed. If they did know, some would not care anyway.

I don't like the tan points much but as they have been known in the breed for a long time they are not a major issue for me.

ETA: The thought of a Weimaraner being sold in a pet shop makes me cringe, they can be a very difficult breed if their living circumstances are not right and anybody buying one on a whim without prior knowledge would be bound to run into trouble sooner or later, and they can be BIG trouble lol

Edited January 29, 2013 by BlackJaq

[BJean]

I guess since I'm new to the whole shebang I can't contribute much, but I know that full biscuit samoyeds are recognised in the USA but not here.

Shame, I actually really like them. But I do wonder what, if any, genetic faults may be related to the colouration. Hmm.

Probably none :)

The english preferred a lighter whiter brighter dog?

'pure bred' often means 'breeding true' which results in dominant colours or bottom recessive colour patterns becoming fixed in some dog populations.

[Sheridan]

I think for many kerry blue and wheaten fanciers, the colour isn't an issue because they come in blue and they come in wheaten. Coat quality - correct coat - is the bigger argument in wheatens, especially. Raging, enemy making divisive arguments.

However, I have posted this before, but my favourite mismark in my breeds is the kerry blonde. They have also come in tri-colour and black and tan (these latter were killed).

Edited January 29, 2013 by Sheridan

[lils mum]

I saw what I thought was a Y with tan points. Looked exactly (and acted) like a Weimaraner but had very light tanny/grey points. Not really noticeable unless you looked but definately there. They bought from a pet shop in north Bris about a year ago and were told it was a W cross staffy. They said the mother was a Y, and had a photo of her on the cage. Were told the breeder thinks a staff jumped the fence. I commented that it may be a dobe cross and no staffy traits were noticeable. I wonder if it was from a breeder who didn't want to be known to be breeding tan points??? God, it was a beautiful dog. But I am a fan of the look of a Y.

Given that there have been Vizsla x Staffy's advertised in Qld in the past 18 months, that might have been what you saw?

[Steve]

Which is really the point to the entire subject isnt it? One purpose of a breed standard is so that you can look at a dog and have no doubt what ever what breed it is - seems a bit stupid if you see a dog and think it's maybe one of a particular breed but you're not sure

[Sheridan]

Which is really the point to the entire subject isnt it? One purpose of a breed standard is so that you can look at a dog and have no doubt what ever what breed it is - seems a bit stupid if you see a dog and think it's maybe one of a particular breed but you're not sure

Sure, but how many Joe Averages look at a dog and think that's a <insert dog breed here> outside of the obviously popular ones? I mean, I look at the photo of the kerry blonde and despite the colour, that's a kerry. Shape, conformation, that's a kerry, but that's because they're my breed. I would think for the vast majority of people, including the doggy fanciers on DOL, it doesn't matter that kerries are only supposed to come in blue.

[Steve]

Which is really the point to the entire subject isnt it? One purpose of a breed standard is so that you can look at a dog and have no doubt what ever what breed it is - seems a bit stupid if you see a dog and think it's maybe one of a particular breed but you're not sure

Sure, but how many Joe Averages look at a dog and think that's a <insert dog breed here> outside of the obviously popular ones? I mean, I look at the photo of the kerry blonde and despite the colour, that's a kerry. Shape, conformation, that's a kerry, but that's because they're my breed. I would think for the vast majority of people, including the doggy fanciers on DOL, it doesn't matter that kerries are only supposed to come in blue.

True

[WoofnHoof]

If the colour exists in the breed then its a part of that breed, culling out colours to make them more 'same same' seems a bit silly to me, why pretend it doesn't exist when it clearly does?

[BlackJaq]

Because that is how breeds are created. Undesired traits are culled.

[becks]

rare coloured boston terriers

http://www.boston-terriers.com/offcolored.htm

[JulesP]

Because that is how breeds are created. Undesired traits are culled.

That is fine if there is a good reason for culling the trait but it doesn't seem that way a lot of the time.

[WoofnHoof]

Because that is how breeds are created. Undesired traits are culled.

With the rare colours becoming popular maybe they can no longer be considered undesirable?

ETA it still seems strange to me when they clearly haven't succeeded in breeding the colour out so it must be fairly closely linked to a trait that is favourable or essential otherwise the colour would have been bred out, so to me it means the colour is an intrinsic part of the breed and should be accepted, except in the case of health issues of course.

Edited January 30, 2013 by WoofnHoof

[SwaY]

If the colour exists in the breed then its a part of that breed, culling out colours to make them more 'same same' seems a bit silly to me, why pretend it doesn't exist when it clearly does?

Sometimes those colours don't exist in the breed until someone uses a different breed to introduce the colour.

To me there is no rare colour, it's either correct (according to the breed standard) or it is not.