Rare Or Not Recognsed Colours

[Mim]

http://www.welshcorgi-news.ch/Leseecke/InfoCorgi/Bluies_eng.html

Webpage about dilute/blue corgis in both Pembrokes and Cardigans.

I was re-reading about how corgis were used to introduce the bobtail gene to boxers and it was very interesting to read that the white gene in boxers is different to that in corgis. Breeding a flashy boxer to another flashy boxer can result in boxers with too much white (even completely white). Yet in corgis, flashy mated to flashy rarely produces pups with too much white (and fully white is even less common). I just thought it was so interesting as it hadn't occurred to me that there would be different genes involved, since the markings are very similar in boxers and corgis, I'd just assumed it was the same gene at work.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Mim

[Roseclipt]

Just read the dachshund link and I find it interesting that they seem to lump piebald and merle into the same basket without any real evidence. They have surmised that because double merles have problems so will piebald to piebald. As far as i know merle to merle matings are know to cause a high incidence of problems but i still can't find any evidence that piebald to piebald does. Especially as in some breeds it is a very common practice and the breed has not suffered. Surely the piebald gene either causes problems or it doesn't. Or is it possible for it to cause problems in some breeds and not others?

It seemed to me that their issue is that piebald will hide the merle, leading to possible inadvertent merle to merle mating. They are not as worried about the effect of the piebald gene on its own.

There is deafness in breeds that have piebald. Steve questioned whether there is another gene at work and it isn't just the piebald gene on its own, but it is well known that a dog without pigment in its ears will be deaf. Usually piebald dogs have coloured ears, and so deafness isn't common, but the way the gene works is a little bit unknown. In some breeds, two piebalds can result in extreme white pups, and the pups have less colour than either parent. Not sure what happens in dachshunds.

Merle is a dominant patching gene, and cannot be hidden by pied. Pied is recessive to merle, and merles can carry (and do) carry it.

[Greytmate]

Just read the dachshund link and I find it interesting that they seem to lump piebald and merle into the same basket without any real evidence. They have surmised that because double merles have problems so will piebald to piebald. As far as i know merle to merle matings are know to cause a high incidence of problems but i still can't find any evidence that piebald to piebald does. Especially as in some breeds it is a very common practice and the breed has not suffered. Surely the piebald gene either causes problems or it doesn't. Or is it possible for it to cause problems in some breeds and not others?

It seemed to me that their issue is that piebald will hide the merle, leading to possible inadvertent merle to merle mating. They are not as worried about the effect of the piebald gene on its own.

There is deafness in breeds that have piebald. Steve questioned whether there is another gene at work and it isn't just the piebald gene on its own, but it is well known that a dog without pigment in its ears will be deaf. Usually piebald dogs have coloured ears, and so deafness isn't common, but the way the gene works is a little bit unknown. In some breeds, two piebalds can result in extreme white pups, and the pups have less colour than either parent. Not sure what happens in dachshunds.

Merle is a dominant patching gene, and cannot be hidden by pied. Pied is recessive to merle, and merles can carry (and do) carry it.

Merle and pied are different genes.The Merle is on the M locus and Merle (M) is dominant to non-merle.(m) The pied is the S locus and non-white (S) is dominant over some white (s), although it is incomplete dominance, and the gene seems to work differently in different breeds.

So a dachshund could express both Merle and Pied at the same time. The person who wrote the article was concerned that a lightly-marked merle dog might be identified as a pied and not as a merle (they gave photo examples), which might result in an undesirable double merle mating.

Edited January 29, 2013 by Greytmate

[corvus]

One time I saw two Weims... I swear they were Weims. From a distance, there was no question in my mind. They were the right size, shape and colour. But closer up, I could just make out dilute tan markings in a fairly typical black and tan kind of pattern. Eyebrows, muzzle, paws and a bit on the chest in one, I think. It was barely visible. I didn't ask the owner if they were purebred as I didn't want to be rude, but I was scrutinising those dogs and I couldn't see any other breed in them. Looked exactly like Weims. Is this colouring known in the breed?

[Steve]

In reply to questions about Parti Poodles, one of the big reasons for not being able to show this pattern is that the breed type runs a great risk of being lost to pretty colors/patterns.

How many quality Red, Apricot and Silver poodles have been exhibited in the show ring in Australia? Not many. There have been a few good examples of the breed, but largely these colors are bred for the pet market. No reason why they should not be registered, but if you are serious about the breed, Type, Temperament and Health should be paramount. The quality in poodles of all sizes is still in black and white.

Hard to be confident of that when no partis have been shown though isnt it and not everyone is breeding them for only the pet market without care for the type and temperament and health.

[Greytmate]

One time I saw two Weims... I swear they were Weims. From a distance, there was no question in my mind. They were the right size, shape and colour. But closer up, I could just make out dilute tan markings in a fairly typical black and tan kind of pattern. Eyebrows, muzzle, paws and a bit on the chest in one, I think. It was barely visible. I didn't ask the owner if they were purebred as I didn't want to be rude, but I was scrutinising those dogs and I couldn't see any other breed in them. Looked exactly like Weims. Is this colouring known in the breed?

Could it have been a blue dobe?

[zeebie]

Could they have been clipped? I know when I use to clip my horses in a rug clip (leaving legs and under belly hair long) the top clipped portion was considerably lighter then under hair.

And yes you can get a dilute Wei but here is what ANKC standard allows -> Silver, roe or mouse grey, as well as shades of these colours. Head and leathers generally slightly paler. Only small white markings on chest or toes permitted. Sometimes a more or less defined trace occurs along the back. Dogs with definite reddish yellow markings may only be given the classification good. Brown marking is a serious fault.

[zeebie]

Not sure if this link has been shared but it is excellent for explaining genes and colour as well as many other important considerations in breeds. http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/dilutes.html

[Greytmate]

Could they have been clipped? I know when I use to clip my horses in a rug clip (leaving legs and under belly hair long) the top clipped portion was considerably lighter then under hair.

And yes you can get a dilute Wei but here is what ANKC standard allows -> Silver, roe or mouse grey, as well as shades of these colours. Head and leathers generally slightly paler. Only small white markings on chest or toes permitted. Sometimes a more or less defined trace occurs along the back. Dogs with definite reddish yellow markings may only be given the classification good. Brown marking is a serious fault.

All weims are dilute. You never see weims in the undiluted colours of black or liver, they are all genetically dd.

Or is there a rare golden weim or something I am unaware of?

Edited January 29, 2013 by Greytmate

[dog geek]

Oooookay... rare colours, recognised but not to be awarded if there is an equally correct but solid Pom in the class with them - solid get the class over parti.

Chocolate:

Chocolate and Tan:

[dog geek]

Chocolate Parti and Orange Parti:

Edited January 29, 2013 by dog geek

[corvus]

Definitely weren't dobes. I thought about it, but they had gundog faces and weren't that tall. I was trying to think what they could be other than weims and all I could come up with was a blue dobe crossed with a weim. They didn't exactly look like spectacular weims, but they didn't look like any other breed or even really like a cross. Pretty sure they weren't clipped. If they were, I wouldn't have seen markings on their faces. It was most clear on their faces with very light bluey-tan eyebrows and around their muzzles. I googled afterwards but couldn't find any reference to what I saw. But it's hard to find these things. They don't get talked about much and sometimes they have names I wouldn't know about.

[dog geek]

Creme Parti and Blue and Tan:

[redangel]

" I do also believe that we should be looking at far greater risks to the breed like bad conformation, bad temperament, and particularly the health issues becoming so prevalent."

I agree whole heartily with this statement said earlier. But that assumes a lot of negativity on a breeder...a generalization that in producing dogs a new color all other conformation/temperament and such are going to go out the window.

My question is..unless there is a clear genetic predisposition to deafness etc... what determines what colors are acceptable where the color is accepted overseas?

Poodles have many variants now. Some colors require black pigment others brown. Apricots should have dark pigment but some are out there with liver/light points....does that assume then that the poodle breed is "ruined"? Breeders of those colors breeding to standard would be aiming to have correct pigment with their breeding and mindful of conformation. Can a color ruin a breed?

Silver Beige have been shown to title... Blues and blacks exist together in the ring. Would not Partis be subject to the same standard , yet specific color standards applied to the coat color? Poodle breeders have gene testing available & knowledge of what colors should not be bred to what color/ what matings improve pigment etc... In the case of Partis what makes them so different?

[Greytmate]

I like the first one best Dog Geek, very rich and chocolatey. :)

The one called a chocolate parti seems to have a black nose, is it brown or black in real life? What about the blue and tan? It gets confusing as each breed uses its own names for different things.

Your orange parti has red reflecting eyes that I have seen in other breeds with the same colouring.

[zeebie]

Yeaaa

dog Geek it worked glad it worked for you And pics are great :D :D Love them all

[corvus]

A bit like this:

[Janba]

I like the first one best Dog Geek, very rich and chocolatey. :)

The one called a chocolate parti seems to have a black nose, is it brown or black in real life? What about the blue and tan? It gets confusing as each breed uses its own names for different things.

Your orange parti has red reflecting eyes that I have seen in other breeds with the same colouring.

The chocolate parti looks more like an ee red than a bb chocolate (or red or liver depnding on what your breed standard calls it).

[weisnjac]

Definitely weren't dobes. I thought about it, but they had gundog faces and weren't that tall. I was trying to think what they could be other than weims and all I could come up with was a blue dobe crossed with a weim. They didn't exactly look like spectacular weims, but they didn't look like any other breed or even really like a cross. Pretty sure they weren't clipped. If they were, I wouldn't have seen markings on their faces. It was most clear on their faces with very light bluey-tan eyebrows and around their muzzles. I googled afterwards but couldn't find any reference to what I saw. But it's hard to find these things. They don't get talked about much and sometimes they have names I wouldn't know about.

I've seen a litter of pure bred Weim's who had tan points. I never seen them grow up so not sure what the colour would look like today, but they had points on them just like Dobes.

Edited January 29, 2013 by weisnjac

[Sayreovi]

Tollers can come in other shades/markings.

One being buff and the other brown tri, both are extremely undesirable and parents who produce them aren't (generally) bred together again, buffs are more common than tris though. They can also have black fringing like Trisvens Fauves, generally they disappear and leave a rich red....sometimes not :)

Edited January 29, 2013 by tollersowned