Rare Or Not Recognsed Colours

[Alyosha]

Where does the no extreme white in Dachshunds rule come from?

Also is there issue with the dilute colourings similar to the issues with dilute in the Staffords?

Given their job as a badger hunter, the badgers would see the white?

Sealyham Terriers may be in trouble if that was the case!

Like Diva said earlier, our breed is fortunate to have all colours allowable. However under FCI standard blue and chocolate are disqualifying faults. And even our standard specifys dark eyes and eye rims dark - which should discount dilutes. It also says specifically that eyes should not be light - just in case there is any confusion! :laugh:

Dilutes can appear in the breed, albeit rarely. I have seen a couple of blue eyes and what appears to be dilute pigment/light eyes in others. I woudn't think a hound with dilute pigment and light eyes would be as suited to working in extremely cold climates and over snowy plains like Borzoi originally did.

But then I've often wondered about blue eyes in Siberian Huskies in the same sense. Could they be prone to sun/glare damage?

[dog geek]

Pomeranian Breeder and member of this forum has just bred a litter of Chocolate Poms. As far as I know quite rare almost unheard of in Australia thus far. Can't wait to how they grow.

I found a site that says chocolate was one of the 4 main colours a century back. Then got 'killed off' (whatever that means) in favour of orange in popularity. But says choc's coming back in the showring. Must have been a colour preference issue, not change in what's acceptable.

http://www.cantonpom...lates-are-sweet

It is rare to get a whole litter of chocolate in a breed like that. You would normally only get a 25% chance of a rare chocolate pup (bb) if you used non-chocolate parents (Bb x Bb) . Breeding chocolate to chocolate will guarantee a whole litter of chocolate, so if people are doing that, the colour won't stay very rare.

Hey - that is me!!!

Actually, Greytmate - the percentages relate to each individual pup, not to the litter as a whole... ie: each pup will have a 25% chance of being chocolate.

This particular litter is dual sired; one sire is the sire of the other sire. The older boy is black and white parti - carries 'and tan' (?a/t) and chocolate (Bb). His son -the other sire - is chocolate and white parti.

The dam is blue and tan - her sire is black and tan, her dam is chocolate sable.

Of five pups, one is chocolate and tan; one is solid black; and three are solid chocolate. All have one or more white toes, and small amounts of white on their toes.

https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.407973929284989.99216.100002171553957&type=3

I am not having any luck loading pictures onto DOL. You could browse my FB album, if you wish.

[MTD]

I love my Parti Pomeranian . His registered as chocolate and white . It is more orange to look at but if you part his hair it is chocolate closer to the skin. The shorter hair on his muzzle, lips and chin etc is a real chocolate colour

As he is developing his adult coat it is getting more of a chocolate color . Also love his chocolate nose and eyes .

I find it hard to understand all the genetics behind different colors but really like the variety you get in parti colors :)

Mind his muddy front

DSC02222 by mtd3, on Flickr

Week # 3 / 52 by mtd3, on Flickr

Edited January 29, 2013 by MTD

[zeebie]

Just digressing from rare breed colours to clarify topic of coloured dogs/horses and melanoma in same.

Unlike the human form of melanoma and the related cause and effect from UV ray exposure causing mutation of pigment and increased melanonin production and then = Melanoma.

Dogs get Melanoma in a totally different way from melanocytes (pigment cells)over production and surprisingly enough it is usually in dark pigment area. If it was UV related then why would they get them in the oral cavity?

See this site http://www.petwave.com/Dogs/Dog-Health-Center/Skin-Disorders/Melanoma/Types.aspx

and sourced from a different site http://www.petplace.com/dogs/malignant-melanoma-in-dogs/page1.aspx ->Malignant melanoma is a tumor arising from melanocytes, which are the cells that produce pigment.The Scottish terrier, Boston terrier, Airedale terrier, cocker spaniel, boxer, springer spaniel, Irish setter, Irish terrier, chow chow, Chihuahua, and Doberman pinscher are the most common breeds affected by melanomas of the skin and toes. The poodle, dachshund, Scottish terrier and golden retriever are the most common breeds affected by melanomas located in the mouth. Other breeds affected include the giant schnauzer and miniature schnauzer, Golden retriever, and Gordon setter.

My dog breed is not listed above but having had a cutaneous melanoma removed from his shoulder last year which appeared from one month to next overlaying a dark freckled area of skin, he is bi coloured dog and area where it was is darker pigment, he has double coat and limited sun exposure.

Horses particularly Grey horses which have much higher ratio of these tumours when over 10yrs of age, the melanomas they develop are simply cyst like that can exude tarry black fluid but are encapsulated and do not metastise, or if they do it is extremely slow process, unlike they do in humans and dogs. Again no evidence to suggest sunlight plays any part more to do with over production of the melanocytes (pigment cells)

[Sheridan]

Where does the no extreme white in Dachshunds rule come from?

Also is there issue with the dilute colourings similar to the issues with dilute in the Staffords?

Given their job as a badger hunter, the badgers would see the white?

Sealyham Terriers may be in trouble if that was the case!

Like Diva said earlier, our breed is fortunate to have all colours allowable. However under FCI standard blue and chocolate are disqualifying faults. And even our standard specifys dark eyes and eye rims dark - which should discount dilutes. It also says specifically that eyes should not be light - just in case there is any confusion! :laugh:

Dilutes can appear in the breed, albeit rarely. I have seen a couple of blue eyes and what appears to be dilute pigment/light eyes in others. I woudn't think a hound with dilute pigment and light eyes would be as suited to working in extremely cold climates and over snowy plains like Borzoi originally did.

But then I've often wondered about blue eyes in Siberian Huskies in the same sense. Could they be prone to sun/glare damage?

So would wheatens but my understanding is badgers have poor eyesight and focus on smell and light they can see. Dog eyes have a particular light to them, in my non-scientificy view. Wheatens, kerries, and sealys, have a fall of hair over their eyes, which allows them to get in first strike.

[Diva]

We have a very rarely marked greyhound entering our Program today. He was imported from Ireland and is believed to be the only greyhound of this colouring in Australia - he is black with white spots. Just like this dog here:

My link

Those markings look like the birdcatcher spots that horses get.

There was a Greyhound with that pattern posted on fb recently, also from Irish lines.

And some colour labels seem so different across breeds. Like 'sable'. Our p/b sable Sheltie was unike any of the sable in Tibbies. And I noticed Diva referred to a rare pattern in Borzois called sable. That made me curious!

I wish there was a less misleading label for that pattern in Borzoi, in Afghans it is called Domino after a famous dog of that colour, and in Salukis it's Grizzle. As it is we can have 'sabled red' Borzoi, and 'red sable' Borzoi, and they are visually and genetically different colours. A little confusing!

[BlackJaq]

True. Weims are all dilute, but no immune or skin problems there.

Nope not true, SRMA has been found in Weimaraners, especially the BYB ones where breeders do not remove diseased animals from the breeding pool.

http://www.affieloverbreedclubs.co.uk/SRMA.htm

Some Weimaraners can also suffer from too little pigmentation which can lead to UV sensitivity (sunburn), especially around the nose and eyes.

Hi,

Grey and White horses, can also end up with Melanoma in later life, from repeated sunburn/exposure to extreme UV

Nope, also not true, Melanoma in grey horses is generally caused by an excess of melanin in their skin, not sun burn: http://www.equi-therapy.net/equi-therapy/horse-veterinary/equine-melanoma.shtml

Melanoma in a grey horse is caused by excess melanin in the affected horse's skin.

Because the horse has the grey gene this excess melanin is not dispersed through the horse's hair as it normally would be, so it is formed into clumps of cells which are the skin tumours that we know as melanomas.

[WoofnHoof]

Where does the no extreme white in Dachshunds rule come from?

Also is there issue with the dilute colourings similar to the issues with dilute in the Staffords?

Given their job as a badger hunter, the badgers would see the white?

Sealyham Terriers may be in trouble if that was the case!

Like Diva said earlier, our breed is fortunate to have all colours allowable. However under FCI standard blue and chocolate are disqualifying faults. And even our standard specifys dark eyes and eye rims dark - which should discount dilutes. It also says specifically that eyes should not be light - just in case there is any confusion! :laugh:

Dilutes can appear in the breed, albeit rarely. I have seen a couple of blue eyes and what appears to be dilute pigment/light eyes in others. I woudn't think a hound with dilute pigment and light eyes would be as suited to working in extremely cold climates and over snowy plains like Borzoi originally did.

But then I've often wondered about blue eyes in Siberian Huskies in the same sense. Could they be prone to sun/glare damage?

Everything I've read about huskies suggests there is no signficant difference between blue eyes and other colours in terms of eyesight and sun damage.

[becks]

http://www.woodhavenlabs.com/mismarks.html

more mismarks on the link above over a couple of pages.

[Greytmate]

True. Weims are all dilute, but no immune or skin problems there.

Nope not true, SRMA has been found in Weimaraners, especially the BYB ones where breeders do not remove diseased animals from the breeding pool.

http://www.affielove....co.uk/SRMA.htm

Some Weimaraners can also suffer from too little pigmentation which can lead to UV sensitivity (sunburn), especially around the nose and eyes.

That is interesting, and supports the idea of the immune problems being a different gene, but near the dilute gene. The only weims I know are show dogs, so they are healthy.

Thanks for explaining your litter Dog Geek, not just a litter of solid chocolate pups, but a bit of a mix. Your Facebook page isn't working, it would be good to see them.

[Steve]

I have a theory about dilute, but no evidence at all, but would be interested if anyone thinks this might be true. The theory comes from observing greyhound colours. Racing greyhounds are never bred for colour, so you see breeding combinations of all the different colours.

The only dilute greyhounds I have known to have immune system problems (like CBS do) , are ones that resulted from a double dilute mating. The blue dogs with at least one solid parent were a slightly deeper shade of blue and tended not to have skin problems. The dilutes bred from two dilute parents also tended to have a different nose texture. Coarser and drier and lighter in colour. So my theory is that there is a lot more going on with that dilute gene than we realise. It's not just simple mendolian inheritance squares.

As we all know, CBS (Common Blue Staffy) are bred dilute to dilute to dilute till the cows come home. How else could they keep pumping out litters full of 'rarities'?

After reading more about poodles, (thanks poodle people), it seems that poodle breeders try to avoid breeding dilute to dilute over successive generations, to avoid 'fading'. They breed back to the darker colours. Is that correct poodle people? It's all a bit confusing with no uniformity of colour name across breeds. Is 'fading' just a cosmetic thing, or are there skin problems with these dogs?

So, to answer your question Steve , yes. I think there is a problem with the dilution gene that doesn't affect dogs who have a non-dilute parents. How this works, I have no idea. Just based on my own casual observation.

But, the BCS syndrome also results in poorly conformed dogs, because those breeders always prioritise colour over conformation. So I think there are two reasons why the CBS syndrome happens.

Problem is we need real studies and not assumptions - especially assumptions based on what happens in other breeds before anyone can say categorically that dilute in staffies causes more health problems.

[dancinbcs]

I love my Parti Pomeranian . His registered as chocolate and white . It is more orange to look at but if you part his hair it is chocolate closer to the skin. The shorter hair on his muzzle, lips and chin etc is a real chocolate colour

As he is developing his adult coat it is getting more of a chocolate color . Also love his chocolate nose and eyes .

I find it hard to understand all the genetics behind different colors but really like the variety you get in parti colors :)

Mind his muddy front

DSC02222 by mtd3, on Flickr

Week # 3 / 52 by mtd3, on Flickr

This Pom is chocolate sable and white. Chocolate pigmented with a choc overlay over red making him look lighter than a plain chocolate. The markings on the face are the giveaway to the sable pattern.

[dancinbcs]

We have a very rarely marked greyhound entering our Program today. He was imported from Ireland and is believed to be the only greyhound of this colouring in Australia - he is black with white spots. Just like this dog here:

My link

I have seen a Rottie with white spots like that but the spots didn't appear until he was about a year old. The idiot owners took him to the vet to be pts because he didn't look like a Rottie any more. Thankfully the vet talked them into giving him the dog instead and he was looking for a home for him.

[Greytmate]

I have a theory about dilute, but no evidence at all, but would be interested if anyone thinks this might be true. The theory comes from observing greyhound colours. Racing greyhounds are never bred for colour, so you see breeding combinations of all the different colours.

The only dilute greyhounds I have known to have immune system problems (like CBS do) , are ones that resulted from a double dilute mating. The blue dogs with at least one solid parent were a slightly deeper shade of blue and tended not to have skin problems. The dilutes bred from two dilute parents also tended to have a different nose texture. Coarser and drier and lighter in colour. So my theory is that there is a lot more going on with that dilute gene than we realise. It's not just simple mendolian inheritance squares.

As we all know, CBS (Common Blue Staffy) are bred dilute to dilute to dilute till the cows come home. How else could they keep pumping out litters full of 'rarities'?

After reading more about poodles, (thanks poodle people), it seems that poodle breeders try to avoid breeding dilute to dilute over successive generations, to avoid 'fading'. They breed back to the darker colours. Is that correct poodle people? It's all a bit confusing with no uniformity of colour name across breeds. Is 'fading' just a cosmetic thing, or are there skin problems with these dogs?

So, to answer your question Steve , yes. I think there is a problem with the dilution gene that doesn't affect dogs who have a non-dilute parents. How this works, I have no idea. Just based on my own casual observation.

But, the BCS syndrome also results in poorly conformed dogs, because those breeders always prioritise colour over conformation. So I think there are two reasons why the CBS syndrome happens.

Problem is we need real studies and not assumptions - especially assumptions based on what happens in other breeds before anyone can say categorically that dilute in staffies causes more health problems.

Yes we do, and it's not something I would state categorically, it's a theory that could be proven or disproven. I was just wondering if anyone else had noticed this? Have there been any real studies on blue staffords or other dilute breeds?

A lot of non-dilute staffies have problems too. The thing with staffords is that the ethical breeders don't breed dilute to dilute because the dogs need to have a black nose. You couldn't compare their dogs directly with the large population of blue ones as they have more incentive to breed healthier dogs.

[BlackJaq]

Can Blue Staffords actually get Main Reg. papers?

[Greytmate]

Can Blue Staffords actually get Main Reg. papers?

Yes.

[dogwoman]

In reply to questions about Parti Poodles, one of the big reasons for not being able to show this pattern is that the breed type runs a great risk of being lost to pretty colors/patterns.

How many quality Red, Apricot and Silver poodles have been exhibited in the show ring in Australia? Not many. There have been a few good examples of the breed, but largely these colors are bred for the pet market. No reason why they should not be registered, but if you are serious about the breed, Type, Temperament and Health should be paramount. The quality in poodles of all sizes is still in black and white.

[dog geek]

I just can't get my pics to load... I used to be able to, using photobucket, that has changed too and I am having Senior's Technopobia now!

[Guest Clover]

Can Blue Staffords actually get Main Reg. papers?

Sadly yes. But even if they could only get limited reg it will not stop the over breeding of them.

[Guest donatella]

I just can't get my pics to load... I used to be able to, using photobucket, that has changed too and I am having Senior's Technopobia now!

nooooooooooooooooo we need cute chocolate baby poms!!