Rare Or Not Recognsed Colours

[Greytmate]

Anne, I remember the big thread we had here about pugs. I'm not convinced that brindle is supposed to be in the breed.

Even if it is in the breed, by making them a registrable colour, there will be a lot more of them in the breed. Because black hides brindle it will take test matings to know if a black is a carrier, and because of the way the gene works, many litters will be all brindle or all fawn. Brindle is a dominant gene, so all fawn dogs are already known not to carry brindle. The gene could be eliminated from the breed if people were prepared to do that, unlike a recessive gene which would be nearly impossible to eliminate without genetic testing.

Ok confused again :D If black hides brindle, how can it be dominant. Or do you mean dominant over fawn. Even so if black is dominant over brindle how can the gene be eliminated without genetic testing?

Think of it like coats of paint. :)

A dog can have a base colour of either black or red. Then it will have a top colour of brindle, sable, or black mask or clear. So you can have a dog with a base coat of black, with a top coat of black brindle stripes. The dog will just look black, you wont see the stripes at all. But they are there and can be passed on, and if that black is mated to a red, any red puppies will all inherit the brindle black stripes over their base coat of red. Which is the visible expression of brindle.

Genetic testing is a faster way to find out genetics than the old method of doing at least two generations of test matings to red dogs.

There is info about the brindle gene here . http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/index.htm

The site is outstanding because of the way it takes this complicated subject and translates it into easy language. Makes it so much easier to understand how the genes interact with each other, and lots of photos.

[Greytmate]

Just read the dachshund link and I find it interesting that they seem to lump piebald and merle into the same basket without any real evidence. They have surmised that because double merles have problems so will piebald to piebald. As far as i know merle to merle matings are know to cause a high incidence of problems but i still can't find any evidence that piebald to piebald does. Especially as in some breeds it is a very common practice and the breed has not suffered. Surely the piebald gene either causes problems or it doesn't. Or is it possible for it to cause problems in some breeds and not others?

It seemed to me that their issue is that piebald will hide the merle, leading to possible inadvertent merle to merle mating. They are not as worried about the effect of the piebald gene on its own.

There is deafness in breeds that have piebald. Steve questioned whether there is another gene at work and it isn't just the piebald gene on its own, but it is well known that a dog without pigment in its ears will be deaf. Usually piebald dogs have coloured ears, and so deafness isn't common, but the way the gene works is a little bit unknown. In some breeds, two piebalds can result in extreme white pups, and the pups have less colour than either parent. Not sure what happens in dachshunds.

[Shantar]

Thanks for the info about being able to test for the piebald gene. That would certainly make it possible for a breeder to know what is in their lines. Are the tests expensive? It wouldn't be the people that desired parti poodles that would be doing most of the testing.

Vetgen charges $50 US for the S gene test.

[WoofnHoof]

Interestingly the double dilutes in horses have been long avoided in many breeds, only recently were double dilutes allowed to be registered in the QHs, yet no such issue was held against single dilutes, palominos, buckskins etc. the management seems to be the primary issue as the diluted pigment is thought to make the double dilutes more prone to skin issues in the sun so most people who own them have sun protection measures in place, although having said that most of the ones I've seen don't seem to have skin issue anyway so whether that's a result of improved quality m not sure, I know it doesn't seem to be an issue in single dilutes which seem to have the same risk of skin issues as solids.

Now of course those who breed for colour prize the double dilutes as they are guaranteed coloured progeny especially in recent years, I have noticed that since they've been allowed to be registered in the QHs the quality is improving as the colour becomes more mainstream and available. Mostly though as with anything it depends on the breeder and their choices, as in the dog world there are horse breeders for whom colour is the only consideration and so of course they tend to skew the population by churning out ill tempered and ill conformed beasties simply because they are coloured, whereas it is certainly possible to find a well bred coloured horse they are the rare ones, especially in some breeds where dilutes have previously not been looked on favourably for whatever reason.

[BJean]

I have a Perlino ASH Stallion and he definitely gets pink skin in the sun. He gets a sunburn look. Whether this is painful for the horse or if it will affect his lifespan I dont know.

Edited January 29, 2013 by lilli

[moosmum]

I have a Perlino ASH Stallion and he definitely gets pink skin in the sun. He gets a sunburn look. Whether this is painful for the horse or if it will affect his lifespan I dont know.

He will be prone to sun burn and possibly skin cancer from repeated burning. You can manage that with screens or U.V fly masks,which would also protect his eyes.The eyes too are prone to damage from the sun from their extreme lack of pigment.

[Jumabaar]

Where does the no extreme white in Dachshunds rule come from?

Also is there issue with the dilute colourings similar to the issues with dilute in the Staffords?

Here is a web page that Espinay provided in the poodle thread. http://www.one-dachs...althissues.html

It talks about health issues of different coat patterns. Because the breed contains merle, and the white can hide the merle, there are extra concerns in that breed, as well as the normal concerns about the deformities that can accompany lack of pigment.

Where does the no extreme white in Dachshunds rule come from?

Also is there issue with the dilute colourings similar to the issues with dilute in the Staffords?

Are there really more issues related to the dilute gene in staffords ? There are no health issues in blue staffords which dont also show in other staffords - is it true or a myth? Where is the science and how do we eliminate how selection may impact rather than colour - eg . If one breeder tests and selects only healthy dogs with knowledge of health issues in the pedigree and another only breeds for colour with little knowledge and without ensuring they don't compromise on health does that impact more than the colour?

I have a theory about dilute, but no evidence at all, but would be interested if anyone thinks this might be true. The theory comes from observing greyhound colours. Racing greyhounds are never bred for colour, so you see breeding combinations of all the different colours.

The only dilute greyhounds I have known to have immune system problems (like CBS do) , are ones that resulted from a double dilute mating. The blue dogs with at least one solid parent were a slightly deeper shade of blue and tended not to have skin problems. The dilutes bred from two dilute parents also tended to have a different nose texture. Coarser and drier and lighter in colour. So my theory is that there is a lot more going on with that dilute gene than we realise. It's not just simple mendolian inheritance squares.

As we all know, CBS (Common Blue Staffy) are bred dilute to dilute to dilute till the cows come home. How else could they keep pumping out litters full of 'rarities'?

After reading more about poodles, (thanks poodle people), it seems that poodle breeders try to avoid breeding dilute to dilute over successive generations, to avoid 'fading'. They breed back to the darker colours. Is that correct poodle people? It's all a bit confusing with no uniformity of colour name across breeds. Is 'fading' just a cosmetic thing, or are there skin problems with these dogs?

So, to answer your question Steve , yes. I think there is a problem with the dilution gene that doesn't affect dogs who have a non-dilute parents. How this works, I have no idea. Just based on my own casual observation.

But, the BCS syndrome also results in poorly conformed dogs, because those breeders always prioritise colour over conformation. So I think there are two reasons why the CBS syndrome happens.

Remember that you can also see effects that are caused by genes that are located around the dilute gene. For example- there may be genes involved with the immune system that have no correlation to the dilute gene themselves, but sit next to them.

Thus you can get breeds where dilutes have no problems because they have managed to eliminate of of the surrounding genes that cause the problems you see. While breeds where almost all dilutes seem to have problems.

[Showpony]

I have a Perlino ASH Stallion and he definitely gets pink skin in the sun. He gets a sunburn look. Whether this is painful for the horse or if it will affect his lifespan I dont know.

He will be prone to sun burn and possibly skin cancer from repeated burning. You can manage that with screens or U.V fly masks,which would also protect his eyes.The eyes too are prone to damage from the sun from their extreme lack of pigment.

Hi,

Grey and White horses, can also end up with Melanoma in later life, from repeated sunburn/exposure to extreme UV

[Greytmate]

Remember that you can also see effects that are caused by genes that are located around the dilute gene. For example- there may be genes involved with the immune system that have no correlation to the dilute gene themselves, but sit next to them.

Thus you can get breeds where dilutes have no problems because they have managed to eliminate of of the surrounding genes that cause the problems you see. While breeds where almost all dilutes seem to have problems.

True. Weims are all dilute, but no immune or skin problems there.

[BJean]

I have a Perlino ASH Stallion and he definitely gets pink skin in the sun. He gets a sunburn look. Whether this is painful for the horse or if it will affect his lifespan I dont know.

He will be prone to sun burn and possibly skin cancer from repeated burning. You can manage that with screens or U.V fly masks,which would also protect his eyes.The eyes too are prone to damage from the sun from their extreme lack of pigment.

Nope too studdy for flymasks. He likes to cavort around and gallop like he is king of the hills. He rears and pivots and makes all sort of triumphant displays. I do put cream on him though. But then he puts his head in the bath, strikes out screams and splashes. All in good fun of course. Funny horse :)

Edited January 29, 2013 by lilli

[WoofnHoof]

I have a Perlino ASH Stallion and he definitely gets pink skin in the sun. He gets a sunburn look. Whether this is painful for the horse or if it will affect his lifespan I dont know.

He will be prone to sun burn and possibly skin cancer from repeated burning. You can manage that with screens or U.V fly masks,which would also protect his eyes.The eyes too are prone to damage from the sun from their extreme lack of pigment.

Hi,

Grey and White horses, can also end up with Melanoma in later life, from repeated sunburn/exposure to extreme UV

It's interesting how the majority of grey horses still have quite long and healthy lives in spite of this, I know one in particular who is approaching 30, still gets ridden and rarely wears any sun protection (he tends to kill rugs etc) he does have one growth and has had it for years without seeming to be adversely affected by it.

[gapvic]

We have a very rarely marked greyhound entering our Program today. He was imported from Ireland and is believed to be the only greyhound of this colouring in Australia - he is black with white spots. Just like this dog here:

My link

[wings]

Where does the no extreme white in Dachshunds rule come from?

Also is there issue with the dilute colourings similar to the issues with dilute in the Staffords?

Here is a web page that Espinay provided in the poodle thread. http://www.one-dachs...althissues.html

It talks about health issues of different coat patterns. Because the breed contains merle, and the white can hide the merle, there are extra concerns in that breed, as well as the normal concerns about the deformities that can accompany lack of pigment.

Thanks for the link :)

I have a Perlino ASH Stallion and he definitely gets pink skin in the sun. He gets a sunburn look. Whether this is painful for the horse or if it will affect his lifespan I dont know.

He will be prone to sun burn and possibly skin cancer from repeated burning. You can manage that with screens or U.V fly masks,which would also protect his eyes.The eyes too are prone to damage from the sun from their extreme lack of pigment.

Hi,

Grey and White horses, can also end up with Melanoma in later life, from repeated sunburn/exposure to extreme UV

It's interesting how the majority of grey horses still have quite long and healthy lives in spite of this, I know one in particular who is approaching 30, still gets ridden and rarely wears any sun protection (he tends to kill rugs etc) he does have one growth and has had it for years without seeming to be adversely affected by it.

They say over 75% of grey horses will have some form of melanoma but only some cases progress. Greys seem more likely to have them, but less likely to have malignant ones then horses of other colours. Some really interesting disscussions on the topic and I hope there's more science to come.

[Rebanne]

We have a very rarely marked greyhound entering our Program today. He was imported from Ireland and is believed to be the only greyhound of this colouring in Australia - he is black with white spots. Just like this dog here:

My link

I remember seeing a program about the Battersea dogs home and they had a grey with the same colouring. At first they thought he may have been mistreated and the white spots were because of scarring but they soon found out it was his actual colour. I've also seen another program or article about the colour but can't for the life of me remember where.

[gapvic]

I've read about them on greyhound-data and always thought it was such a striking colour Rebanne! Very much looking forward to seeing the new boy when he arrives today.

[JulesP]

We have a very rarely marked greyhound entering our Program today. He was imported from Ireland and is believed to be the only greyhound of this colouring in Australia - he is black with white spots. Just like this dog here:

My link

Those markings look like the birdcatcher spots that horses get.

[Steve]

Thanks for the info about being able to test for the piebald gene. That would certainly make it possible for a breeder to know what is in their lines. Are the tests expensive? It wouldn't be the people that desired parti poodles that would be doing most of the testing.

Im guessing they'd be around the hundred mark and - might be the ones who wanted it depends on why they want to know I guess.

[WExtremeG]

We have a very rarely marked greyhound entering our Program today. He was imported from Ireland and is believed to be the only greyhound of this colouring in Australia - he is black with white spots. Just like this dog here:

My link

Those markings look like the birdcatcher spots that horses get.

Wow! they sure do!

[Janba]

We have a very rarely marked greyhound entering our Program today. He was imported from Ireland and is believed to be the only greyhound of this colouring in Australia - he is black with white spots. Just like this dog here:

My link

Looks like the hailstone labradors mentioned in the previous thread on this topic

[mita]

jThe black/tan/white German Shepherd dogs were given the name Panda Shepherds.

That was an amazing looking dog in the pic you posted, becks.

It's good if posters can give a pic example of a colour or a link. Hard to visualize accurately when you have no experience with a breed.

And some colour labels seem so different across breeds. Like 'sable'. Our p/b sable Sheltie was unike any of the sable in Tibbies. And I noticed Diva referred to a rare pattern in Borzois called sable. That made me curious!

Edited January 29, 2013 by mita