Rare Or Not Recognsed Colours

[Trisven13]

Here is a fauve pup with a LOT of white on it... This is a pedigreed pup and the photo was provided to me by an overseas breed expert.

The other photo shows a fauve with black in its coat as a pup. This pup would have been born very, very dark and, apparently, all the black will go away. I've not breed a pup with this colouring BUT I have seen one here in Australia that went to a pet home - I've not seen it as an adult but would love to. It had less black in its coat than this pup.

[Shantar]

The comments on the parti poodle are interesting. The parti is the progenator of the breed and in the 16th/17th century poodles were white and black. The parti gene is recessive in most lines but does show up where breeders are using a lot of matings between white and black. Partis are registered by the AKC, UKC, CKC, English Kennel Club and on the Continent but cannot be shown. The solid colour was brought into the English standard from what I understand, in the 1960s. Vulcan Champagne Kennels in the Uk was still breeding and showing partis in the 1960s. These dogs are pedigree and their breeding can be traced back for many generations. While I am not interested in breeding partis I do believe they should be registered with a mark on the pedigree papers stating they do not conform with the standard for colour. The gene cannot corrupt the poodle as it has always been there and of course being able to do DNA testing for the S gene will assist those who do not want the gene in their breedings. I do also believe that we should be looking at far greater risks to the breed like bad conformation, bad temperament, and particularly the health issues becoming so prevalent.

Our lines are so limited and genetic diversity is also limited.

[mita]

[ For as long as I can remember its been accepted that the piebald / white spotting gene are responsible for causing deafness but there is a fair bit of new work being done including that of Professor Clare Wade from Sydney Uni and a couple of others world wide have done a lot of work on identifying the deafness gene which as it turns out may not caused as simple as it was thought - there is no doubt that deafness is more prevalent in dogs with more white but this may not be the whole story and may explain why some breeds with these genes are affected and others are not

Your whole post is interesting on the point of connection between genes, colour & deafness. Rangheld Primdal (Scandanavin) on the Tibbie Net website, talks about this. She refers to twp different views, which sure backs your point that it's not as simple as has been 'traditionally' thought. Tho' you have referred to even further research:

The sW –genet is the most recessive gene. It produces extreme amounts of white and quite often the dog only has small, coloured markings around its eyes or on its head, ears or tail. sw will, in combination with S or si , give atypical particolor patterns. According to Ms. Catherine Marleys article on Lhasa Apso, she writes that the sw --gene often appears together with deafness in the inner ear (cochlea). I know of two cases like this in Tibbies.

But according to a Norwegian canine medical book called: ”Hund, Avl og Helse” (Dog, Breeding and Health), written and published by the Association for Veterinary Practise on Small Animals, there are no hereditary defects tied into this gene, but instead to the M-gene, which in double doses can cause deafness and sometimes even blindness and sterility. I have not been able to find out which source is correct.

Edited January 28, 2013 by mita

[Steve]

[ For as long as I can remember its been accepted that the piebald / white spotting gene are responsible for causing deafness but there is a fair bit of new work being done including that of Professor Clare Wade from Sydney Uni and a couple of others world wide have done a lot of work on identifying the deafness gene which as it turns out may not caused as simple as it was thought - there is no doubt that deafness is more prevalent in dogs with more white but this may not be the whole story and may explain why some breeds with these genes are affected and others are not

Your whole post is interesting on the point of connection between genes, colour & deafness. Rangheld Primdal (Scandanavin) on the Tibbie Net website, talks about this. She refers to twp different views, which sure backs your point that it's not as simple as has been 'traditionally' thought. Tho' you have referred to even further research:

The sW –genet is the most recessive gene. It produces extreme amounts of white and quite often the dog only has small, coloured markings around its eyes or on its head, ears or tail. sw will, in combination with S or si , give atypical particolor patterns. According to Ms. Catherine Marleys article on Lhasa Apso, she writes that the sw --gene often appears together with deafness in the inner ear (cochlea). I know of two cases like this in Tibbies.

But according to a Norwegian canine medical book called: ”Hund, Avl og Helse” (Dog, Breeding and Health), written and published by the Association for Veterinary Practise on Small Animals, there are no hereditary defects tied into this gene, but instead to the M-gene, which in double doses can cause deafness and sometimes even blindness and sterility. I have not been able to find out which source is correct.

Its great isnt it ? Its one of the things I love most about breeding dogs - there is always something new to learn, research one thing and more things to challenge you turn up. It constantly changes as more studies and more knowledge is added in and even more exciting when you step outside just one discipline and watch how experts in other fields have different theories.

[WExtremeG]

White GSD's arn't actually "white", but red (ee) they are fully pigmented (black skin, nails, eye rims ect)

There are "panda" (apparently purebred) GSD's ( who have a white spottng pattern- I think they look rather odd though...

[german_shep_fan]

I adore the panda gsds as well as solid liver and liver/tan. Also a fan of the bridles, big follower of a breeder in the US who breeds them :) Pretty sure the blue/tan and liver/tan are recognised there, but never really looked into it.

[Showpony]

Self Coloured Pointers.......require 1 self coloured parent........and any parti coloured Pointers who have a self coloured parent will never produce self colour (unless put to another self colour)

[becks]

just been to look up about the panda shep and found this

The Panda Shepherd Dog is a piebald German Shepherd which has occured in a single GSD bloodline. It is 35% white, the remainder of color is black and tan. It is a spontaneous mutation and has no White German Shepherds in its ancestry. The parents who produced the black/tan/white female puppy were a purebred black German Shepherd dam and a purebred black and tan German Shepherd sire. The rest of the litter were standard looking black and tan German Shepherd pups. The sole black/tan/white puppy also had two blue eyes. In order to protect the image of her breeding program the founding breeder, Ms. Cindy took the piebald puppy to Ohio State University Veterinary Hospital for genetic DNA testing to find out the exact cause of the anomaly. The parents of the pups were confirmed as purebred GSD's with no White GSD's or other breeds in their lines. This was a purebred GSD who was born with piebald coloring. The same sire and dam who produced the piebald puppy were bred three more times and all the pups were born with the traditional black and tan coloring. A lot of canine genetic coat color testing was done on the piebald puppy who was named Frankie. When Frankie matured she was bred to a traditional colored black and tan GSD. Out of the four puppies born three turned out to have black/tan/white coats but lacked the blue eyes, while the fourth puppy was the traditional black and tan coloring. The black/tan/white German Shepherd dogs were given the name Panda Shepherds.

[Dame Aussie]

Oh that's lovely

[WoofnHoof]

This is Lulu she is a cream Swedish Vallhund, the cream is a fault in the breed I believe it is because the coat is softer and not as tough as the darker colours, I'm not really up with the genetics of the colour but I think it's lovely :) She does suffer from summer skin sensitivity but whether that is associated with the colour I don't know, she has pigmented skin.

I think that rare colours should be allowed to become part of most breeds except in the cases where it is associated with a health problem, everyone has a colour preference so why make it that any colour is harder to get for no good reason? I've always preferred lighter colours in most of my animals, I don't know why it's certainly not because I like continually washing them lol :laugh:

[Christina]

Self Coloured Pointers.......require 1 self coloured parent........and any parti coloured Pointers who have a self coloured parent will never produce self colour (unless put to another self colour)

I prefer this self colour. It is lovely.

[WExtremeG]

more "panda shepherds" here

http://www.kerstoneshepherds.net/colors/patterns.htm

http://pandashepherds.com/

http://www.facebook.com/pages/K9-PINES-Kennel-Home-of-Liver-German-Shepherds-and-Woolly-Siberian-Huskies/125734893702

Read a thread not unlike the "parti Poodle" thread that was on here, here:

http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/genetic-issues/175584-panda-shepherd.html

American (akc) breed standard:

http://www.akc.org/breeds/german_shepherd_dog/index.cfm

Edited January 28, 2013 by WExtremeG

[wings]

Where does the no extreme white in Dachshunds rule come from?

Also is there issue with the dilute colourings similar to the issues with dilute in the Staffords?

[Steve]

Where does the no extreme white in Dachshunds rule come from?

Also is there issue with the dilute colourings similar to the issues with dilute in the Staffords?

Are there really more issues related to the dilute gene in staffords ? There are no health issues in blue staffords which dont also show in other staffords - is it true or a myth? Where is the science and how do we eliminate how selection may impact rather than colour - eg . If one breeder tests and selects only healthy dogs with knowledge of health issues in the pedigree and another only breeds for colour with little knowledge and without ensuring they don't compromise on health does that impact more than the colour?

[Greytmate]

Thanks for the info about being able to test for the piebald gene. That would certainly make it possible for a breeder to know what is in their lines. Are the tests expensive? It wouldn't be the people that desired parti poodles that would be doing most of the testing.

[Sheridan]

Where does the no extreme white in Dachshunds rule come from?

Also is there issue with the dilute colourings similar to the issues with dilute in the Staffords?

Given their job as a badger hunter, the badgers would see the white?

[WoofnHoof]

Thanks for the info about being able to test for the piebald gene. That would certainly make it possible for a breeder to know what is in their lines. Are the tests expensive? It wouldn't be the people that desired parti poodles that would be doing most of the testing.

Not sure about dogs but gene colour tests in horses are about $25 sent to the US, I had a parentage DNA verification done on mine it was $90 it can be done through UQ. A friend had a genetic disease screen done on a foal it cost about $100.

[teekay]

the recently (to aus) recognised white miniature schnauzer

This is my young bitch Fria.

Are white schnauzers white because of lack of pigment, or because of a pale ee expression?

They have pigment and like a lot of white dogs, can have some biscuit colour to the top coat.

She's pretty. Good to know that they are fully pigmented.

Anne, I remember the big thread we had here about pugs. I'm not convinced that brindle is supposed to be in the breed.

Even if it is in the breed, by making them a registrable colour, there will be a lot more of them in the breed. Because black hides brindle it will take test matings to know if a black is a carrier, and because of the way the gene works, many litters will be all brindle or all fawn. Brindle is a dominant gene, so all fawn dogs are already known not to carry brindle. The gene could be eliminated from the breed if people were prepared to do that, unlike a recessive gene which would be nearly impossible to eliminate without genetic testing.

Ok confused again :D If black hides brindle, how can it be dominant. Or do you mean dominant over fawn. Even so if black is dominant over brindle how can the gene be eliminated without genetic testing?

Never heard of a 'panda' gsd. Was surprised when I saw the pics because the colouring is nothing like a panda, lol. Should have just called them pied or piebald GSDs. Very interesting links WextemeG, thanks for those. There sure were some vehemently against breeding them on that GSDs forum. And some who refused to believe that it wasn't a result of a cross with a husky somewhere down the line, regardless of genetic evidence proving they were pure.

Sorry if this has already been answered but, can the colour be registered here? Personally I do not like the look of them but it is interesting.

[Greytmate]

Where does the no extreme white in Dachshunds rule come from?

Also is there issue with the dilute colourings similar to the issues with dilute in the Staffords?

Here is a web page that Espinay provided in the poodle thread. http://www.one-dachs...althissues.html

It talks about health issues of different coat patterns. Because the breed contains merle, and the white can hide the merle, there are extra concerns in that breed, as well as the normal concerns about the deformities that can accompany lack of pigment.

Where does the no extreme white in Dachshunds rule come from?

Also is there issue with the dilute colourings similar to the issues with dilute in the Staffords?

Are there really more issues related to the dilute gene in staffords ? There are no health issues in blue staffords which dont also show in other staffords - is it true or a myth? Where is the science and how do we eliminate how selection may impact rather than colour - eg . If one breeder tests and selects only healthy dogs with knowledge of health issues in the pedigree and another only breeds for colour with little knowledge and without ensuring they don't compromise on health does that impact more than the colour?

I have a theory about dilute, but no evidence at all, but would be interested if anyone thinks this might be true. The theory comes from observing greyhound colours. Racing greyhounds are never bred for colour, so you see breeding combinations of all the different colours.

The only dilute greyhounds I have known to have immune system problems (like CBS do) , are ones that resulted from a double dilute mating. The blue dogs with at least one solid parent were a slightly deeper shade of blue and tended not to have skin problems. The dilutes bred from two dilute parents also tended to have a different nose texture. Coarser and drier and lighter in colour. So my theory is that there is a lot more going on with that dilute gene than we realise. It's not just simple mendolian inheritance squares.

As we all know, CBS (Common Blue Staffy) are bred dilute to dilute to dilute till the cows come home. How else could they keep pumping out litters full of 'rarities'?

After reading more about poodles, (thanks poodle people), it seems that poodle breeders try to avoid breeding dilute to dilute over successive generations, to avoid 'fading'. They breed back to the darker colours. Is that correct poodle people? It's all a bit confusing with no uniformity of colour name across breeds. Is 'fading' just a cosmetic thing, or are there skin problems with these dogs?

So, to answer your question Steve , yes. I think there is a problem with the dilution gene that doesn't affect dogs who have a non-dilute parents. How this works, I have no idea. Just based on my own casual observation.

But, the BCS syndrome also results in poorly conformed dogs, because those breeders always prioritise colour over conformation. So I think there are two reasons why the CBS syndrome happens.

[teekay]

Just read the dachshund link and I find it interesting that they seem to lump piebald and merle into the same basket without any real evidence. They have surmised that because double merles have problems so will piebald to piebald. As far as i know merle to merle matings are know to cause a high incidence of problems but i still can't find any evidence that piebald to piebald does. Especially as in some breeds it is a very common practice and the breed has not suffered. Surely the piebald gene either causes problems or it doesn't. Or is it possible for it to cause problems in some breeds and not others?

On the other hand, there have not been many (if any) lengthy studies done on piebalds, as yet. The piebald pattern carries a potential risk of health problems, specifically deafness. The research study regarding deafness to which The AKC Health Foundation issued a grant, indicates that increasing amounts of white in the coat increase the likelihood of deafness. Heather Pate, of DDEAF, Deaf-initely Dogs, the official newsletter of Deaf Dog Education Action Fund, www.ddeaf.org, stated in the Spring 2002 edition: “Genes for coat color that are intricately linked to deafness are the merle genes and piebald genes. Merle genes produce the dappled or merle effect of multicolored individual hairs. Piebald genes affect the amount and distribution of white on the dog’s coat....” If our breed has increasing numbers of piebalds in its gene pool, it stands to reason that we will eventually have more deafness in our breed.

Eta Added quote for clarification.

Edited January 29, 2013 by teekay