Rare Or Not Recognsed Colours

[becks]

as per suggestion on the old thread here http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/208460-rare-or-disqualifed-colours-in-breeds/

starting a new topic, as the poodle colour threads have been very interesting. Plus i am a bit of a fan of the not so common colours in various breeds.

As with the old thread - share your pics of these dogs.

Edited January 28, 2013 by becks

[mita]

Good on you. I thought the discussion & links provided in the original thread were excellent. Very educational.

I'm putting in the mix Tibetan Spaniels where all colours , shadings of the basic colours, & parti-colours are acceptable for full registration. What people might prefer, according to personal taste, is another matter.

The range & genetic implications for achieving that range, here. Click on Color Genetics in Tibetan Spaniels:

http://www.tibbies.net/coat_color.html

Edited January 28, 2013 by mita

[JulesP]

Do other breeds get around the colour issue by registering the dogs as a different colour?

If you look through the DOL border collie puppy sale page you will see a heap of litters that really should not have happened because the dogs should have been on the limit registry because of colour.

[Tapua]

It doesnt happen as much now but there were a few of Yellow, Fawn & Tan & Blue ANKC Kelpies registered as solid Fawn or Blue or Red. They are not often seen in the ring but bred from and their progeny registered. Its not necessarily a bad practice its just that it makes it hard to know which lines to introduce to your lines or to avoid if the colours on the pedigrees are false. The Blues & Tans & Fawn & Tans can be registered on the limit register. Especially if it is a new person.

Whilst for some it was good for creating colour in their lines it buggers up the solids introducing shading and can introduce mismarkings such as excessive white. More than a thumbprint of white on the chest would, IMO, be unacceptable in an ANKC bred Kelpie solid but that is just my opinion. Why do people do this sort of thing. Money generally. But hey the colour fad persists. I only hope the current breeders begin to prioritise the increasing number of health issues that are occuring in ANKC Kelpies rather that just prioritise the fad colours for the OS market or the show ring.

[Greytmate]

Parti might be rare in Poodles, but the gene behind the pattern is not rare in dogs. One of the things that gives the poodle breed its unique characteristics as a totally solid colour dog, is the rule that any lack of pigment is a fault and the dog can't be registered. This doesn't eliminate the gene from the breed (it has always been there), but it does mean that the gene is not so widespread. Solid colour dogs are generally fully solid and the odd parti or irish marked pup that is born is a very rare occurrence. The lack of pigment is a fault, but people find them attractive so they do get homes as pets.

If parti is allowed to be registered in poodles, I see two potential problems that might occur.

One is that the gene will become common, and as it is an incomplete dominance we will see the effects in solid dogs. Some will have lack of pigment in toes and chests. If they allow the parti pattern to be registered, will they also allow the many other possible expressions of the gene to be registered? Or will we lose these dogs from the genepool?

The other possible consequence might be that the bloodlines with the parti gene will be avoided by solid poodle breeders, and that the parti breeders will be on their own. This would mean essentially the parti poodle would be a separate breed. We might see the Common Blue Staffy Syndrome happen with parti poodles, because the unscrupulous will breed only for colour, guaranteeing them 100% parti pups. Continually breeding parti to parti carries a risk of deafness, as well as the loss of conformation we see in the CBS.

Backyarders are already doing this now, but giving registration approval for parti would give the breeders the credibility of official ANKC papers and allow the breeders to make claims of "champion bloodlines" and the like.

It is important to understand how the parti gene works. It isn't just a colour, it's a lack of pigment in a pattern.

Here is a website with good current information about colour genetics in dogs. This page especially will help understand the parti gene and its possible effects. http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/white.htm

[Diva]

Borzoi are theoretically allowed in almost any coat colour or pattern , from self coloured black, all shades of cream and red, brindle, black and tan or 'sable' (which is really domino/grizzle ) with no white all the way through to all white and any spotted or parti pattern in between. I don't think the merle gene or aw wild agouti exists in the breed, dd blues occur although I don't think anyone deliberately seeks them out, and bb liver has been seen but is very rare.

So in the black series they can be KB dominate black, K br brindle, or Ky, in the agouti series ay red or at black and tan, in the e extension series E , E m melanistic masked, E G grizzled, or ee clear red, in the white spotting series anything from self colour to parti to extreme white, in dilution of black undiluted D or dilute d, but this and liver dilute are not common and not acceptable under various standards, the nose should be black.

Probably one of genetically rarest is the pattern called sable in Borzoi which is really at at black and tan combined with the EG E G grizzled gene, the same combination as causes domino in Afghans. It is not rare within the breed but occurs only in Afghans, Salukis, Borzoi and maybe a couple of other rarer sighthounds.

It is a little sad having an 'expert' at an Australian dog sho w lecture me on how my Irish marked sabled red Borzoi had too much colour-completely wrong but that is what happens when only heavily white marked are common in the ring locally, I would hate to lose the variety of allowable colour even though I think colour is unimportant compared to other qualities.

There have been good developments in DNA testing for colour although much remains to be learnt. Mine have been tested for the agouti, K, and E series including E G just for interest sake.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Diva

[Pretty Miss Emma]

This is slightly off the original topic, but when you register puppies that are not a recognised colour what do you do? I have BC's and for instance I know sable is not a recognised colour (even though it's gorgeous!). So with my 2 it's easy, they are listed as black and white because that's what they are and that's a recognised colour/s. But if it were a sable puppy, what are they listed as on their pedigree? I know they should be on the limit registry, I'm assuming though that there should also be some record of their colour.

I also find the colour genetics most interesting - and also somewhat confusing!!!

[Guest donatella]

A wonderful Pomeranian Breeder in Aus has just bred a litter of Chocolate Poms. As far as I know quite rare almost unheard of in Australia thus far. Can't wait to how they grow.

Edited January 28, 2013 by donatella

[RiverStar-Aura]

PME I'm pretty sure that a sable BC would be limited registered as a sable. I'm only going from what I've read in the other thread though so I'm not certain.

[mita]

Dog Geek, a Pomeranian Breeder and member of this forum has just bred a litter of Chocolate Poms. As far as I know quite rare almost unheard of in Australia thus far. Can't wait to how they grow.

I found a site that says chocolate was one of the 4 main colours a century back. Then got 'killed off' (whatever that means) in favour of orange in popularity. But says choc's coming back in the showring. Must have been a colour preference issue, not change in what's acceptable.

http://www.cantonpomeranians.com/chocolates-are-sweet

[Greytmate]

Pomeranian Breeder and member of this forum has just bred a litter of Chocolate Poms. As far as I know quite rare almost unheard of in Australia thus far. Can't wait to how they grow.

I found a site that says chocolate was one of the 4 main colours a century back. Then got 'killed off' (whatever that means) in favour of orange in popularity. But says choc's coming back in the showring. Must have been a colour preference issue, not change in what's acceptable.

http://www.cantonpom...lates-are-sweet

It is rare to get a whole litter of chocolate in a breed like that. You would normally only get a 25% chance of a rare chocolate pup (bb) if you used non-chocolate parents (Bb x Bb) . Breeding chocolate to chocolate will guarantee a whole litter of chocolate, so if people are doing that, the colour won't stay very rare.

Edited January 28, 2013 by Greytmate

[Guest donatella]

Dog Geek, a Pomeranian Breeder and member of this forum has just bred a litter of Chocolate Poms. As far as I know quite rare almost unheard of in Australia thus far. Can't wait to how they grow.

I found a site that says chocolate was one of the 4 main colours a century back. Then got 'killed off' (whatever that means) in favour of orange in popularity. But says choc's coming back in the showring. Must have been a colour preference issue, not change in what's acceptable.

http://www.cantonpomeranians.com/chocolates-are-sweet

I think they are more common in the US but have been quite unheard of here in Aus but the rarer colours are starting to make a come back thanks to the importation of lines.

[becks]

I'm going to add this from the old thread, simply because I was talking about this colour to a flatcoat friend recently, so sent them the pic

yellow flatty

[becks]

the recently (to aus) recognised white miniature schnauzer

This is my young bitch Fria.

[Pretty Miss Emma]

PME I'm pretty sure that a sable BC would be limited registered as a sable. I'm only going from what I've read in the other thread though so I'm not certain.

So, on the limit register any colour can be listed? But on the main register you have to choose from a select few allowed colours? (I have no idea, I just get the dogs that are right for me!!) And what happens if colour shows up as the dog matures? Eg. a friend of mine bought a dog as a black and white, but we think she is actually tri as she has had some markings show up as she has matured that lead us to believe she is actually tri.

Hmm, so that would mean if someone is breeding with a colour that isn't allowed then that dogs colour has not been recorded accurately on it's pedigree? I guess if that is happening then that makes it difficult to know what is behind dogs and what might come up. Tricky, tricky!

[Pretty Miss Emma]

the recently (to aus) recognised white miniature schnauzer

This is my young bitch Fria.

I've never seen a white one, so adorable!

[Greytmate]

the recently (to aus) recognised white miniature schnauzer

This is my young bitch Fria.

Are white schnauzers white because of lack of pigment, or because of a pale ee expression?

[t a i l s.]

The wonderful Lilli gave me this link to read up on colour genetics, I think it's great :) (I love pictures, hehe :laugh:)

Edited to add the link! Silly me - http://homepage.usask.ca/~schmutz/dogcolors.html

Edited January 28, 2013 by t a i l s.

[sheena]

PME I'm pretty sure that a sable BC would be limited registered as a sable. I'm only going from what I've read in the other thread though so I'm not certain.

So, on the limit register any colour can be listed? But on the main register you have to choose from a select few allowed colours? (I have no idea, I just get the dogs that are right for me!!) And what happens if colour shows up as the dog matures? Eg. a friend of mine bought a dog as a black and white, but we think she is actually tri as she has had some markings show up as she has matured that lead us to believe she is actually tri.

Hmm, so that would mean if someone is breeding with a colour that isn't allowed then that dogs colour has not been recorded accurately on it's pedigree? I guess if that is happening then that makes it difficult to know what is behind dogs and what might come up. Tricky, tricky!

And to add to the confusion some colours of BC's used to be allowed on the Mains Register, but are now not allowed, like chocolate Tri's & Chocolate Merles. So those dogs that were originally allowed are still able to be bred from. It's so ridiculous...all the colours should be allowed, except too much white, just as they are overseas. Pricked ears in BC's should also be allowed & encouraged IMO also, as there are some lovely coloured, pricked eared BC's overseas. It's a shame we lag so far behind the rest of the world, when it comes to my chosen breed. Some breeders do get around the colour bit, by registering them as the next best colour allowed on the list, as far as I know. so this is going to make it very confusing generations to come Far better that the correct colour be allowed to be registered in the first place.

[Sayreovi]

Why haven't BC breeders made the ANKC change the standard to allow all colours? If the country of origin allows it, then getting Australia too follow the rest of the world shouldn't be too hard?