Please Help Me Save My Dog

[persephone]

Today, Roo had a trial with a household of uni students. It went really well :D After an hour or so of pacing the hallway when I left she settled, and by the afternoon when I picke her up she was really calm and relaxed. The girls can take her 8.30 - 5.30 3 days per week at $20 per day :D <br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247);">I have also ordered herbs.<br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247);"><br style="color: rgb(34, 34, 34); font-family: verdana, tahoma, arial, sans-serif; line-height: 18px; background-color: rgb(238, 242, 247);">It is a start

and she looks so peaceful !

[Sheridan]

Sounds like things are looking up for you and Roo, Jelly!

[schnauzer]

You are an amazing owner - I hope that Roo continues to improve. Very best of luck.

[Staffyluv]

That is great that you have a place that can help you both.

I didn't know about the exercise thing either.. Our trainer pointed it out as she has a BC that that is exactly the same and she saw it in Ziggy the first time she met him.

The more exercise he had, the more he wanted to do.

Brain training wears them out and has been a blessing for us on cold wet days (where I just don't want to go out).

A treadmill is a good idea to for those days that you can't get out for a run but I haven't done that yet. Although I think it is a good idea for those with dogs that are being retrained into a bit less physical exercise and more brain training.

Don't get me wrong - a good run is important but they really don't need a couple of hours of running a day to wear them out.

Have you tried puzzle toys - like kongs etc? where you hide treats in them and she had to get it out (I freeze his kongs on hot days and it takes him ages).

Frozen ice cream container with a chook wing/neck or some sardines frozen into it can keep them busy for hours.

Hiding their breakfast in the garden etc can become a game of find it. (Zig hasn't mastered this one and tends to look at me like I am an idiot but we are working on it).

In the training thread there are lots of great ideas on how to help dogs deal with all sorts of things - if you have some time, read some of the threads because you might recognise something in a thread that makes you think ' that will work with Roo'.

I have with Zig - the wait command has been invaluable to us as has the leave it command.

Good luck

[Erny]

Jellybush - could be a long shot (or not), but have you specifically tested your dog for hypothyroidism? If not, and if you want to enquire further, contact Dr Jean Dodds in the USA. Email me if you are unable to find her email address. Not many Vets out here give credence to the thyroid affecting behaviour in any or much extreme, especially if other typical clinical symptoms are absent. But I think it is at least worthwhile discussing with Dr Jean and then making your decision from there. Testing via Dr Jean Dodds in the USA (more thorough testing regime and more things taken into account when being analysed) isn't as expensive as you might think it could be.

ETA: Are there any (other) medical tests that have been suggested and/or done via your behaviourist?

Hi there Erny. That is very interesting and I'm going to look into it. No tests have been done aside from regular testing of bloods to ensure the meds are not having any adverse effects (Roo's urine since taking them is orange and there is some concern re. kidneys long term. )

It would probably be something I'd do, to at least rule it out. But as I've mentioned (hinted), I'd not be totally confident about any thyroid test done in Australia that came back negative because the testing here isn't as thorough as it is done in the USA.

That your dog has taken so easily to relaxing provided there are people around (i.e. not necessarily you or for that matter, familiar people) increases my confidence that there is the real potential to help him and that the problem isn't so much "Separation Anxiety" in the technical sense (which is where the attachment is to a particular person or animal regardless of other company) but that it is more a case of not being able to cope with no company. Techniques for behavioural rehabilitation are similar in both instances, but I do believe the emotional state comes from a different level and potentially for different reasons.

I agree with Staffyluv regards putting the focus on mental exercise as opposed to physical exercise. The latter is important for the fitness and well-being of the dog, especially physically speaking, but mental exercise is often over-looked. In amongst the various mental exercises you do (eg. tricks; obedience skills; etc), some other good exercises that can lend themselves towards creating a degree of independence are things such as "send-aways". IE Getting the dog to become confident about moving away from you, simultanously learning that the dog has some control over his own destiny. Agility sport is good for something like this. As is fly-ball. It is not the whole picture, as you (or some person) is still present throughout the exercise, but the dog is performing under your instruction and guidance but is making (well-guided) decisions for himself (and he's multi-tasking instead of being completely and only focused to the handler) and apart from the physical aspect, is also exercising his brain. I particularly like Agility for this because the agility course is often changing. Fly-ball course is static, although it can be a good start especially if your dog is into ball chasing, fetching etc.

Believe it or not, these aforementioned sports (or similar) also generally have a good impact on the owner as well. Subtle (to us, but not necessarily to the dog) changes in attitude and body language emerge that the owners previously were unable to extinguish or disguise - simply because the owner/handler is also so mentally busy thinking about the course and negotiating the dog through it.

Edited January 30, 2013 by Erny

[trifecta]

You know I was reading something on another list today & it made me think of Roo. The gist of the discussion was one of the forms of communication with our dogs we often neglect is that of emotion. While our thoughts drive our emotions, our feelings come from hormonal & chemical changes in our body. A sensitive dog can pick up on this & a dog is able to sense what we feel before we feel any emotion. Many dogs know we are about to get angry or cry before we manifest that particular emotion..... they can smell what we feel before we feel the emotion. Similar to the dog that can predict an epileptic seizure.

Jelly, you have been through the emotional wringer, you have lost a partner & your life has been turned upside down. This applies equally to Roo as well. However as well as the physical absence of someone in her life she can smell your anxiety. Roo is now the main focus of your life but this situation is stressful in itself as there is the underlying fear of losing her; I'm not explaining this very well, but your anxiety would be feeding hers & it becomes a vicious circle.

Obviously her time in the student household provides respite for both of you. She certainly looks relaxed in the photo. Maybe you were filled with less trepidation leaving her there, so that on this occasion she feels more confident & less stressed because you are?

I certainly hope so & that it gives you both a breathing space for some normality to creep back into your lives.

[kayla1]

That your dog has taken so easily to relaxing provided there are people around (i.e. not necessarily you or for that matter, familiar people) increases my confidence that there is the real potential to help him and that the problem isn't so much "Separation Anxiety" in the technical sense (which is where the attachment is to a particular person or animal regardless of other company) but that it is more a case of not being able to cope with no company. Techniques for behavioural rehabilitation are similar in both instances, but I do believe the emotional state comes from a different level and potentially for different reasons.

Interesting! We don't very often see this distinction on here when people are discussing dogs with separation anxiety. Does that mean dogs that have trouble coping alone (as opposed to 'separation anxiety') are more likely to respond well to rehabilitation?

[Erny]

Interesting! We don't very often see this distinction on here when people are discussing dogs with separation anxiety. Does that mean dogs that have trouble coping alone (as opposed to 'separation anxiety') are more likely to respond well to rehabilitation?

I can only answer in my experience, rather than strictly in science, but I have found it easier to rehabilitate a dog to cope alone (when the lack of experience is the core issue) rather than one who has deep seated emotional attachments to a particular person or animal. That is not to say that the process has always been "easy", but rather, that I've found it easier. But of course, simply comparing one animal's behaviour against another is not a scientific basis to make such a statement, as the prior environmental experiences of each individual dog (some of which have been unknown) is most likely to have a bearing on the success rate and the "ease" of achieving that success.

I have noticed more and more where the term "Separation Anxiety" has been interpreted by many as appropriate to their (or others') dogs, simply by thinking along the lines of "that dog is anxious when people - or animals - are separated from it - ergo, this behaviour must be SA". Because people generalised so much, the term was changed to "Separation Related Behaviour" when speaking in a general sense, but "SA" still kept popping up as the term to fit and so it has evolved by the masses to think this means any separation from any and/or all people or animals.

I recognise "Separation Anxiety" as specific (as aforementioned) to A particular person or A particular animal and find the behaviour more manic, more deep seated than I do (generally, and in my experience speaking) as a dog that (simply .... although not always "simple", so I'm using that term in a 'per se' sense) isn't accustomed to being alone.

[Erny]

And yes, Trifecta, I tend to agree with the line of thinking you're travelling along in your post above. If the dog perceives an owner having a "weak link" (sorry for the wording, I'm tired, but I intend no offence nor judgement) some dogs have a sense of obligation to protect/govern. If the person it (in its mind) is supposed to protect is gone that can be akin to a bitch fretting after pups that have been forcibly removed/taken from the den. That the dog is confined and has no control or ability to be able to look to find that person, the initial anxiety can build to overwhelming anxiety and then you have a dog escalating to frenzy.

I'm not saying this is the OP's case - I couldn't know as I don't know them. But this is why one of the early foundations in behavioural modification of this (and other) types centres around altering the perception of the dog and strengthening the leadership status in favour of the human.

[Rosetta]

.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta

[Erny]

I find that very interesting Erny. My dog has been diagnosed by behaviourists as having SA but he is OK being separated from me if he has other human company.

Yes, I think the essence of the terminology is becoming lost.

[Jellyblush]

Hi everyone. Wow, what a lot of knowledge in this thread. Thank you for reading, caring and sharing your thoughts.

Erny, what you have to say is so encouraging. Roo had her second day with the Uni girls today, and it went better than last time. I did not medicate her beforehand this time, and she was just fine. Calm and relaxed. This is definitely going to help. My current predicament is that it is 3 days per week, so I am short two days. Roo really, at the current time, cannot be alone at all. Not for an hour - it is a welfare issue, her self harming is too extreme.

Trifecta, there could well be an element of this. I have noticed and been aware of my own anxiety levels escalating over the last year as I have worried about Roo, and about my own life, and about the effect that caring for her has on my life (i.e., I do not have one!). The question is, how to de-escalate it?

Rosetta, the visit to Roo's behaviourist went ok yesterday. I raised the question of putting her to sleep, however, we will try a new drug, and additional training while Roo is having a break from the stress of being alone with the Uni girls. The theory is that when the stressful event (being alone) is removed, Roo will be better able to learn. I will follow the program SAS sent me, plus I will do crate training, treating my backyard as a crate. I can try herbs at the same time, also a DAP collar, I just need to ensure the herbal medications aren't contra-indicated with the meds. The training hopefully provide the mental stimulation she needs as mentioned in this thread too.

To be honest, I feel exhausted just thinking of this. This will be yet another of many, many attempts with training, and I really hope it yeilds results for Roo. I love her but constantly caring for her is wearing me down. Her behaviourist says respite breaks for me every few months are important even if it does mean boarding her (which actually she is pretty ok with since there's always someone around).

Wish us luck as we give it our best shot over the next couple of months. Still looking for a 2 day week pet sitting solution in Melbourne's North if anyone knows anyone.

Thank you all once again.

[Purdie]

http://lonelypetsclub.com.au/main.asp

maybe this group could help 2 days a week or if you need a break away...Forgot to ask earlier....

Where does Roo sleep ?

Edited February 1, 2013 by Purdie

[Rosetta]

.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta

[trifecta]

Jelly, you asked how to keep your anxiety under control. Well, that's a hard one, but maybe you are already starting to? Seeing Jelly happy at the student household is a start as is chatting it over with like minded souls on DOL.

Is there a DOL meet near you? There are social events on this pageof DOL? You've really got to get out & have some relaxation - this way you could take Jelly!

You have shown incredible fortitude & although I don't have any useful advice to help you on this journey, I am, like many others here, beside you every step of the way. As Rosetta said, make sure to look after yourself & keep persevering. You obviously deserve a change of luck in life right now & I hope it's just around the corner :)

[mita]

[

I can only answer in my experience, rather than strictly in science, but I have found it easier to rehabilitate a dog to cope alone (when the lack of experience is the core issue) rather than one who has deep seated emotional attachments to a particular person or animal.

Yes, the context for the separation anxiety is important for the kind of techniques followed.

Our Sheltie who'd rip up the soft furnishings was diagnosed by the behaviorist vet as being highly attached to me. And the aggressive ripping of items when I wasn't there was actually her demanding that I be with her. To me, it had looked like terrible distress, which had made me take even more notice of her. Which meant I'd been innocently reinforcing her 'clingy-demanding' behaviour.

But, as soon as the vet explained it as demanding.... the treatment techniques she prescribed made sense. And those techniques changed the sheltie's behaviour amazingly. The vet behaviorist said the important thing was to apply those techniques consistently ...

First on the list was that Shelley had to be given huge doses of 'ignore', in everyday life, for a period of a few weeks. And I was specially to ignore her for 15 mins before leaving home & 15 minutes on coming home. Any attempt she'd make to get my attention.... like barking at me, or jumping up... I was to turn my back. No eye contact.

Sounds cruel, but Shel had to learn she could not demand attention from me. If ever she got attention, it was because I had given her an order, like 'Sit'. So obedience training was a big thing... especially her learning she could not get all the good things (treats, meals, pats etc) unless she obeyed an order first.

This was coupled with setting up a place that was to be her 'good' place.... a dog bed with her toys, items that strongly had my scent on them, chewy treats. And she was to spend time on this good place, even when I was at home. That was gradually trained, too.

After a few weeks of doing all I was told to do consistently, Shelley's 'demanding' behaviour started to fade. Then no more frenetic destructive behaviour when I wasn't there. The extreme doses of ignore could gradually be relaxed.

Edited February 1, 2013 by mita

[hankdog]

Not sure if you've already tried a dog sport but since you're going to be with her anyway would getting into agility, obedience or flyball or one of the other sports be a way to socialise and also possibly boost Roos confidence?

[Jellyblush]

http://lonelypetsclub.com.au/main.asp

maybe this group could help 2 days a week or if you need a break away...Forgot to ask earlier....

Where does Roo sleep ?

Thanks, I'll look into it :)

Roo sleeps in the hallway, on her own bed.

Heres hoping the new meds will make some difference. Are the training methods you are using different to what you have tried before?

Remember it is also important to look after yourself. Do you have any access to a counselling service that may help you talk through the situation? Sometimes it is helpful to have input from an objective viewpoint.

No.... I'd like one, but when I've tried to talk to my own friends they jut seem to think I'm crazy for getting so involved in my dog..they have been saying put to sleep or rehome for 3 years. I'm worried a professional wouldn't understand or would laugh at me....

Jelly, you asked how to keep your anxiety under control. Well, that's a hard one, but maybe you are already starting to? Seeing Jelly happy at the student household is a start as is chatting it over with like minded souls on DOL.

Is there a DOL meet near you? There are social events on this pageof DOL? You've really got to get out & have some relaxation - this way you could take Jelly!

You have shown incredible fortitude & although I don't have any useful advice to help you on this journey, I am, like many others here, beside you every step of the way. As Rosetta said, make sure to look after yourself & keep persevering. You obviously deserve a change of luck in life right now & I hope it's just around the corner :)

Thank you so much. This means the world to me.

[

I can only answer in my experience, rather than strictly in science, but I have found it easier to rehabilitate a dog to cope alone (when the lack of experience is the core issue) rather than one who has deep seated emotional attachments to a particular person or animal.

Yes, the context for the separation anxiety is important for the kind of techniques followed.

Our Sheltie who'd rip up the soft furnishings was diagnosed by the behaviorist vet as being highly attached to me. And the aggressive ripping of items when I wasn't there was actually her demanding that I be with her. To me, it had looked like terrible distress, which had made me take even more notice of her. Which meant I'd been innocently reinforcing her 'clingy-demanding' behaviour.

But, as soon as the vet explained it as demanding.... the treatment techniques she prescribed made sense. And those techniques changed the sheltie's behaviour amazingly. The vet behaviorist said the important thing was to apply those techniques consistently ...

First on the list was that Shelley had to be given huge doses of 'ignore', in everyday life, for a period of a few weeks. And I was specially to ignore her for 15 mins before leaving home & 15 minutes on coming home. Any attempt she'd make to get my attention.... like barking at me, or jumping up... I was to turn my back. No eye contact.

Sounds cruel, but Shel had to learn she could not demand attention from me. If ever she got attention, it was because I had given her an order, like 'Sit'. So obedience training was a big thing... especially her learning she could not get all the good things (treats, meals, pats etc) unless she obeyed an order first.

This was coupled with setting up a place that was to be her 'good' place.... a dog bed with her toys, items that strongly had my scent on them, chewy treats. And she was to spend time on this good place, even when I was at home. That was gradually trained, too.

After a few weeks of doing all I was told to do consistently, Shelley's 'demanding' behaviour started to fade. Then no more frenetic destructive behaviour when I wasn't there. The extreme doses of ignore could gradually be relaxed.

I have followed this also, for a very long time. It did stabilise her condition for a while, but then I moved house and it stopped being effective.

Not sure if you've already tried a dog sport but since you're going to be with her anyway would getting into agility, obedience or flyball or one of the other sports be a way to socialise and also possibly boost Roos confidence?

t

[Jellyblush]

[

Not sure if you've already tried a dog sport but since you're going to be with her anyway would getting into agility, obedience or flyball or one of the other sports be a way to socialise and also possibly boost Roos confidence?

t

!

This is a great idea! I think she'd really benefit from something that used her energy in this way. If anyone knows of something suitable in Melbourne's inner north I'd love to hear it

[Weasels]

JB - pretty sure Underdog training run agility, maybe give them another call :)