bianca.a Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Just sending you and your beautiful girl with her heart shape nose so many positive thoughts (((hugs))) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoofnHoof Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I also suggested, very early on, that Roo should be PTS. I said this because I felt that Jelly was asking permission to do this, or needed to know that this step was a possibility at least and that she would be supported in it. So I still support Jelly if this is the way she wants to go. At the moment I am feeling like she needs some space so maybe we should give her that. I agree, even though I am one who is happy to keep thinking of ideas to try to help Jelly and Roo, oftentimes people have hit the end of the road before they come here and ask and would simply like some validation in their decision to PTS and some reassurance about doing it. I don't think anyone here would hold it against Jelly if she did that, many have said they wouldn't cope with the work put in. I know where she is coming from as mine is just as bad if not worse in some ways, it is a worry for sure and it does tend to affect everything you do. I think it is very hard managing a dog like this while working as well. I hope that Nek's method will work for this dog and that Jelly can get a bit more freedom, I think there has been some really good progress made even just in looking at the behaviour not just as anxiety but from other perspectives such as habit and demanding behaviour as well. It is a lot of work to undo negative behaviours especially when it is so easy for the dog to reinforce itself, and when you can't always be there to correct it it is a real hassle. Anyway, however this all pans out I think this owner is a great one and she is doing what she can for her dog :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
D'smum Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 IMHO...give nek's ways your all. Her advice is sound. As well, she is helping you provide Roo with the ability to self manage her problems rather than being dependent on meds. You are a beautiful person for going to these lengths for your girl. If its true that that which does not kill you will make you stronger, you should have super-powers by now! Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Whatever the outcome for Roo, you have my complete support Jelly... T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 As horribly cold and calculated as it sounds, setting time frames and expectations for improvement is about stonewalling human nature so you can make rational, compassionate decisions. There's a little thing called the sunk-cost effect that means we don't want to pull out of something we have invested a lot into even if it means we will lose out even more in the end. It makes compassionate and rational decisions about welfare very difficult. While it's laudable to be so devoted to another living being, there is suffering occurring on both sides and if can be ended. It's not a failing or something to be ashamed about to find the kindest thing is to set what you love free. It takes great strength of character and love to be able to make that decision for a friend. And it's true, you can't assess the effectiveness of a method without a measure of improvement. Is Peter Singer a special hero of yours? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 As horribly cold and calculated as it sounds, setting time frames and expectations for improvement is about stonewalling human nature so you can make rational, compassionate decisions. There's a little thing called the sunk-cost effect that means we don't want to pull out of something we have invested a lot into even if it means we will lose out even more in the end. It makes compassionate and rational decisions about welfare very difficult. While it's laudable to be so devoted to another living being, there is suffering occurring on both sides and if can be ended. It's not a failing or something to be ashamed about to find the kindest thing is to set what you love free. It takes great strength of character and love to be able to make that decision for a friend. And it's true, you can't assess the effectiveness of a method without a measure of improvement. Is Peter Singer a special hero of yours? Will you please stop making this thread personal? What Corvus explained is how it has been explained to me by various professionals who have nothing to do with Corvus or anyone else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyblush Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 Woah.... what happened in here?! Extra pages appeared from nowhere! As ever thank you so much to all of you for your support and kind words. Many different perspectives in this thread, however I know each of them is put forward in kindness and with Roo's best interests at heart, so thank you. I have never been offended by any suggestion to put Roo to sleep - the reason I came to this forum was to see what genuine dog lovers and dog experts think is a reasonable way forward, and so it is as helpful to hear that as anything else. I see Roo every day feel I do a pretty good job of assessing her quality of life. When I began to post here, it was not high, she was anxious as often as not. Now, through a mix of medication, some moderate behavioural change, and daycare, she is anxious for a much much much smaller fraction of her life. I know there will be some of you that think any anxiety at all is too much, and unfair to her, while others will think a loved, happy dog for 80% of the time is a dog worth keeping around. In the end it is me that has to decide. What I am not as good at, is drawing that same line for myself. I often feel trapped by my life revolving around Roo, Greymate is right in this. However, again, the extent to which I care more for Roo than I do for myself is also up to me. Anyway, as far as I can see there is one thing I haven't tried, and that is Nekh's training program without medication. Other training programs have not worked, but have been markedly different to Nekhs in ways I won't go into, and medication has not worked in the long term, except to make me broke, it has worked pretty well for that! I intend to discuss weaning off the meds with my behaviourist (I do not think this will be welcomed but still...) and give it a shot. Wish us luck, and thank you all again. Here's a pic for the Roo-lovers :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyblush Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) I also wanted to especially thank Tdierikx, Woofnhoof, Hankdog, Snook and Sheridan for your comments over the last day or so. In one way or another you have all especially made me feel supported and encouraged. Hankdog, I'm sorry to hear about your dogs problems How can creatures so adorable be so mental!! Edited March 14, 2013 by Jellyblush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Katdogs Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) You're very reasonable Jellyblush. I'm on the 'there's got to be a limit' side but I have immense respect for your care and efforts for lovely Roo. I truly hope you can both find peace, one way or the other. ETA I haven't had a SA dog other than one little foster I gave up on after three days (took him back to the Rescue's kennel). I just don't know that I could cope at all Edited March 14, 2013 by Katdogs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Look at little miss innocent in those photos ... Grumpy was the same. Who? Me? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I don't hold any particular fondness for so-called professionals in yours or Corvus' line. I prefer to have some humanity when talking about someone's pet. You keep making it personal every time you tell Jelly to kill her dog. There's nothing inhumane about acknowledging human nature and finding ways to assess the welfare of a being in your care objectively. The whole point is to be as humane as possible. I think we owe it to our animals to have something more substantial than "I think it's working" when their welfare is potentially compromised, whether their life is in the balance or not. This is a general comment for everyone out there who is or will in the future be facing difficult decisions about an animal in their care. I've always felt that if you loved your animal you would do the right thing by them whatever that may be. I still believe that, but to me "doing the right thing by them" means being as sure as I can be of my assessments. I'm about 6 months off a PhD in cognitive biases. Guess why I like numbers. I think it's fair to say Jellyblush understands that the ultimate decision lies soley with her and she will be supported and not judged regardless of what she chooses to do. This is a different issue to how she makes her decisions, and encouraging her to approach assessment and decision making with the tools to be rational when the situation is so emotional is not the same as urging her to put her dog to sleep or something. It's hard to keep your head above the water. Being able to make assessments you believe in helps a lot IME. By all means, try all the things you want to try, just make sure you can't pull the wool over your own eyes about their effectiveness. Because people do, particularly when we care so much. It's how we work and that's fine as long as we are aware of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 She's just so gorgeous it's obvious from the photos that she does spend many hours as a very happy and content girl, with her beloved mum Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosetta Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) . Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply Grand Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Well said Corvus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyblush Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 she IS gorgeous!! Here's one of her with her Dad, he who moved to the UK and left me to deal with the mental one on my own. Too cool for school. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyblush Posted March 14, 2013 Author Share Posted March 14, 2013 Rosetta, she's been on it five weeks now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bianca.a Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 She really IS beautiful Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosetta Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) . Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 If the behaviourist's methods aren't working, and Nekh's methods have had some success so far, I'd be inclined to thank the behaviourist for their efforts and going with Nekh's method only for a while to see if Roo keeps improving. Whatever the long term outcome, your patience and dedication is incredible. Roo is the luckiest dog alive to have you as her mummy. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aidan3 Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 The behaviourists methods were Clomicalm, which appears to have made a tangible improvement. The cost and stigma seem to be the problem there. I don't have any solution for the cost, but the stigma is unwarranted. Clomicalm reduces anxiety, and that's it. It's not a hypnotic, any extra sleeping is because your dog can relax. There are anxiolytics out there which do some strange things, and even clomicalm can do some strange things in rare individuals, but it is not a drug that comes with a huge risk of that. Jelly, you mentioned state-dependent learning earlier in the thread. It's an astute observation, but not a huge practical concern. What you really need to be satisfied with is that the benefits of the drug outweigh the costs. Put aside cultural concerns or any ideas that a dog "shouldn't" need drugs to be able to function normally. Which genes your dog gets are a random assortment of what is available when dog meets bitch. Mood disorders appear with some probability just as serious liver or joint or heart problems do. The real problem (as i see it) is the financial cost vs the amount of benefit gained - is that benefit enough? I feel for you, and for Roo, and commend you on the outstanding effort you've made to ensure that Roo gets the very best chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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