tdierikx Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Hey Jelly... I think we need another Roo photo fix... *grin* T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westiemum Posted March 12, 2013 Share Posted March 12, 2013 Jelly not that this is my area but when I was reading your description of Roo on meds, as Nekhbet said, I too thought to myself she is better off without them. And I absolutely agreee with oonga. Give Nekhbet your complete undivided attention for at least a month - and follow her advice as closely as possible - and no-one elses - for a month. Then see where you are. Keep going - you're doing brilliantly. Roo is one very lucky girl. In fact I'm not sure I could have kept at it the way you have. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyblush Posted March 13, 2013 Author Share Posted March 13, 2013 okay okay :) here come the pics. Roo seemed ok alone today. I guess like anyone with a mental illness she has good and bad days?! Tomorrow daycare again so that's a relief. Houseguests this weekend so hopefully that doesn't unsettle her. Roo with her favourite prawn :) Roo & mum Roo on the hunt for breakfast! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyblush Posted March 13, 2013 Author Share Posted March 13, 2013 Also - that's a big YES to listening to Nekh. There's gotta be an answer that isn't 5 day a week daycare or high levels of tranqs. Just has to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Jelly not that this is my area but when I was reading your description of Roo on meds, as Nekhbet said, I too thought to myself she is better off without them. And I absolutely agreee with oonga. Give Nekhbet your complete undivided attention for at least a month - and follow her advice as closely as possible - and no-one elses - for a month. Then see where you are. Keep going - you're doing brilliantly. Roo is one very lucky girl. In fact I'm not sure I could have kept at it the way you have. :thumbs up: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
harley Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 Love the last photo! :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted March 13, 2013 Share Posted March 13, 2013 The "Roo & mum" photo sums it all up, doesn't it? T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 The "Roo & mum" photo sums it all up, doesn't it? T. It really does. Listening to Nekh = good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheilaheel02 Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 + 1 for the Nekh advice fan club. S Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Also - that's a big YES to listening to Nekh. There's gotta be an answer that isn't 5 day a week daycare or high levels of tranqs. Just has to be. There may not be an answer. Some people have psychological problems that can't be cured, so it would be unrealistic to think that there is a cure for every dog. The only way you will know for sure whether Nek's method works on your dog is to follow the method to the letter, and reassess Roo's progress at the time interval you have chosen. Not mostly follow the method, but completely 100% follow it every single day. Nek needs to give you a time frame so you can determine the success of this method, instead of just allowing things to drag on forever with no end in sight. Have you got a written training program to follow yet? If you give this method a go and there is still no improvement, you will know whether the method is the answer for Roo or not. Nobody could say you are not making a huge effort for Roo, but not all methods are successful for all people and dogs. I really hope this method works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Some dogs with SA truly and honestly can't be helped. The literature on it is kinda sad. Lots of things can help lots of dogs, but some dogs with extreme cases seem to be beyond help. Hopefully Roo is not one of them, but I second Greytmate's suggestion to set a timeframe and quantify Roo's progress so you know if she's improving or not. It's not going to do you or Roo any good to believe that there is an answer if you just try hard enough. You're already doing everything you can and you should know that there is a possibility that there is no answer no matter how hard you try. If what you're doing now doesn't turn out to be the answer, you could always talk to your vet behaviourist about a phone consult with Karen Overall. She's pretty much the world expert on treating separation anxiety in dogs. Or failing that, Kersti Seksal has received a lot of training from Karen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) In my view, people like Nekhbet who are offering to help are actually more helpful than people telling Jelly to euthanase her dog. Edited March 14, 2013 by Sheridan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 In my view, people like Nekhbet who are offering to help are actually more helpful than people telling Jelly to euthanase her dog. So you think this is about people? I thought we were talking about a particular method being used to overcome a particularly serious problem, and the effectiveness of that method. It is not about people. Please don't try to make it about that. Poor Jelly has been through enough without anyone making this personal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 In my view, people like Nekhbet who are offering to help are actually more helpful than people telling Jelly to euthanase her dog. Well said Sheridan... Is it possible that Roo's issues are boredom based rather than actual separation anxiety? Nekh? What are you leaning towards? T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sheridan Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 (edited) In my view, people like Nekhbet who are offering to help are actually more helpful than people telling Jelly to euthanase her dog. So you think this is about people? I thought we were talking about a particular method being used to overcome a particularly serious problem, and the effectiveness of that method. It is not about people. Please don't try to make it about that. Poor Jelly has been through enough without anyone making this personal. Nice try at turning it onto me. You've said from the start that Roo should be pts and insisting that Jelly should have a finite date by which Roo has to be fixed except if you take a look at the title, it's please help me save my dog not what you have been pushing from the start. You're not helping. Edited March 14, 2013 by Sheridan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I also suggested, very early on, that Roo should be PTS. I said this because I felt that Jelly was asking permission to do this, or needed to know that this step was a possibility at least and that she would be supported in it. So I still support Jelly if this is the way she wants to go. At the moment I am feeling like she needs some space so maybe we should give her that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greytmate Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Nice try at turning it onto me. Yes, it was a knee-jerk response to you talking about which people you think are helpful and which you think are not. Nice try at silencing anyone who isn't going along with the crowd. You've said from the start that Roo should be pts and insisting that Jelly should have a finite date by which Roo has to be fixed I insist that any worthwhile dog trainer should be able to set a date in order to quantify any progress. The method is not the trainer, it is just the method the trainer is undertaking. Let's take the personal out of this. Serious problems call for serious methods and rigorous application. except if you take a look at the title, it's please help me save my dog not what you have been pushing from the start. You're not helping. I can read the title. It also says "last chance'. I want to remind people of what Jelly has lost because of this dog. I have actually moved house to one that is concrete and steel to minimise the damage she caused in her anxious frenzies. She could be hit by a car and die. I am terrified of this. But I am absolutely at breaking point over this, how do I keep her safe? How do I stop her self harming and being so stressed, it breaks my heart. How do I afford the constant repairs - I am not rich and she has cost me thousands. I don't begrudge it, but I can't sustain it either. I'm 34, I'd love to meet someone new, I still dream of a family of my own. But I feel I can never go out....I can't void working but feel tied to Ruby and the house the rest of the time. This has been a strain and I am very depressed....I have dark thoughts a lot of the time, about ending things. So this is what Jelly's life is. Her life is on hold because of this dog. And in the mean time the dog keeps hurting itself, still destroys things, and still is in danger of escaping. And nobody here wants to hear of a dog being PTS, but nobody here is in a virtual prison like Jelly is either. And nobody here feels the pain that Roo feels when she has calmed down and the nerve damage from broken teeth and skin start to be felt. I am all for all possible methods being tried for this dog. But they need to be tried 100%. If they don't work, a new method can be tried, and no good trainer should be given up on until they have had a chance to properly assess the dog and try an alternative method if known. But unless somebody is prepared to put that method on paper with a time frame to judge success, I can't see how it can be assessed. I don't always agree with the general 'two steps forward one step back' line of thinking about dog behaviour. Every regression can reinforce undesirable behaviour. As long as this dog is alive there will be people offering suggestions and coming up with new ideas. Only Jelly has the power to stop the suffering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rebanne Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 I also suggested, very early on, that Roo should be PTS. I said this because I felt that Jelly was asking permission to do this, or needed to know that this step was a possibility at least and that she would be supported in it. So I still support Jelly if this is the way she wants to go. At the moment I am feeling like she needs some space so maybe we should give her that. me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankdog Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 Dear Jelly and Roo, I have twice got one week away from making this decision. On both occasions I told myself that I would throw everything at it for a week, pretty much 25/7 and if I didn't get any improvement then that was it. You have one life and you need to enjoy it and live comfortably with your decisions. You're in a corner and fighting very hard and either way you're going to be uncomfortable, there is no easy way out of your situation unfortunately. I'm in a different place to you, as a recent empty nester I have the time and resources to invest in my dog but some days the walls close in and I have to think very hard about what I want to do. Whatever happens I wish you strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted March 14, 2013 Share Posted March 14, 2013 As horribly cold and calculated as it sounds, setting time frames and expectations for improvement is about stonewalling human nature so you can make rational, compassionate decisions. There's a little thing called the sunk-cost effect that means we don't want to pull out of something we have invested a lot into even if it means we will lose out even more in the end. It makes compassionate and rational decisions about welfare very difficult. While it's laudable to be so devoted to another living being, there is suffering occurring on both sides and if can be ended. It's not a failing or something to be ashamed about to find the kindest thing is to set what you love free. It takes great strength of character and love to be able to make that decision for a friend. And it's true, you can't assess the effectiveness of a method without a measure of improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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