Nekhbet Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 Well I'd assume they haven't been taught, mind you some people will never have feel or timing, google Linda Parelli for a prime example of this. Oh I was in horses as a kid and I have a horse now, yup I know Parelli method :laugh: I have the same no nonsense approach with our horse, I don't want my head kicked in by a 17H TB :p Anyway.... we did ok today. Roo went to a friends. Who gave me a lecture about how my anxiety about Roo was feeding Roo's anxiety and I was a bad owner. Although the first part of this is almost certainly true, I'm doing my best, and it upset me. I can't just 'switch off' worrying about her, although after Nek's advice I am trying really hard to control it. Rome wasn't built in a day so don't feel too pressured. Do it at a pace your comfortable at, Roo will conform to it too, main thing is both you and Roo are on the up. Berating anyone doesn't work which is why I don't do it, you need the confidence too not just the dog. The advent of the internet I think has hindered progress in some ways, frightening people so much. Dogs are not rocket science, but start over thinking things and they soon become it! We need to go back to the old days, no puppy preschools, no puppy primary, it's dog school until your dog is trained up properly. You started the minute you got the dog, not do all this fluffy marketing shite until the dog turns into a total menace, then most owners are too broke to get proper help. I don't blame a lot of people who get to the point of tears or wanting to get rid of the dog, it must be horribly frustrating and confusing for the average owner to know what is right and wrong these days with your pets! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 13, 2013 Share Posted February 13, 2013 I've always found that training usually means training the human moreso than the dog. A trainer friend of mine told me once that a dog already knows how to sit, but YOU have to learn how to ask him/her to do it when YOU want him/her to. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankdog Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 So much common sense in this thread, (and I see so much of my mistakes) love it! Next time someone berates you Jelly hand them the leash and walk away, until they've walked in your shoes they should just shush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pollywaffle Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I think your ongoing efforts for Roo are inspirational Jellyblush...heartening to see someone make the commitment, not take the seemingly easier option... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 blunt and not especially loving either. In whose eyes? ;) I believe in rules , and also believe that speech/contact not be done just for the hell of it .. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Loving is a subjective thing - you don't have to pass down handfulls of treats and be constantly lavishing your attention on the dog to show you 'love' it. You don't have to be horrible, just relax around the dog :) I come across as blunt I know, quite a few people tell me that but I still buy my old patrol dog a cupcake collar and bowl for xmas so I'm not a hearless cow after all! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyblush Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Jelly, don't let anyone make you feel like a bad owner, you absolutely are not. You know you have to be a bit tough on Roo now and you're doing it, and all you've done before is what you've been told will help her. Cheers :) I get SO TIRED of people who, just because they had a dog growing up, start sentences with the words "you just need to" and end them with "get another dog", "use a dog walker", whatever else it is. As if I haven't tried all of that. Grr. I don't blame a lot of people who get to the point of tears or wanting to get rid of the dog, it must be horribly frustrating and confusing for the average owner to know what is right and wrong these days with your pets! It's very hard, even within this thread there are different views as to how to tackle the problem, let alone the vets and trainers you see then the peanut gallery of your friends, family and colleagues :laugh: It's hard to block out the 'noise' and just listen to one voice. SO my update for today! Roo was outside for part of today. I was filming.... I *think* there was improvement. She still agitated, but not in such a frenetic manner, and this could be due to the food changes I think I also spoke to a trainer my vet asked me to call. She was very nice but confused me by saying that rather than unpredictable departures, I should always flag clearly to the dog that I was leaving. She also said that it's really important I come back the second BEFORE the panic starts. How is that even possible? How would I know, until it's started! Especially if I'm not there!! Very confusing to know what to do. Then after work I crated Roo while I went to the shops. 35 minutes. She did paw and bite a lot at the crate, but not in a frenzied way. Interestings things I learned today: "distress" signals (lip licking etc) are completely absent when Roo is alone. She doesn't do any of the trembly stuff. Not once! The 'panic' ie biting doors and crate, does not appear to be driven by distress. She didn't seem distressed at all. Nek said to me, she's learned "scrabbling at her confined state is just something she's learned to do when you're gone" (not those exact words but you get the idea). Well I think that is definitely true. But, how to unlearn it? I don't really know.....crate, or backyard, seems to be the same, she just does it. Hmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hankdog Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Just a thought if she's going to scrabble how about a pile of cardboard boxes to scrabble in or on. One giant pile a week would maybe keep her busy for a while? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyblush Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Just a thought if she's going to scrabble how about a pile of cardboard boxes to scrabble in or on. One giant pile a week would maybe keep her busy for a while? I have lots of those! She scrabbles at whatever is keeping her 'in'. I.e. the backdoors if she's outside, the crate door if she's in it, the front door if she's inside. I don't think giving her boxes would help unless I lined the crate door with them - not a bad idea! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Jelly, don't let anyone make you feel like a bad owner, you absolutely are not. You know you have to be a bit tough on Roo now and you're doing it, and all you've done before is what you've been told will help her. Cheers :) I get SO TIRED of people who, just because they had a dog growing up, start sentences with the words "you just need to" and end them with "get another dog", "use a dog walker", whatever else it is. As if I haven't tried all of that. Grr. I don't blame a lot of people who get to the point of tears or wanting to get rid of the dog, it must be horribly frustrating and confusing for the average owner to know what is right and wrong these days with your pets! It's very hard, even within this thread there are different views as to how to tackle the problem, let alone the vets and trainers you see then the peanut gallery of your friends, family and colleagues :laugh: It's hard to block out the 'noise' and just listen to one voice. SO my update for today! Roo was outside for part of today. I was filming.... I *think* there was improvement. She still agitated, but not in such a frenetic manner, and this could be due to the food changes I think I also spoke to a trainer my vet asked me to call. She was very nice but confused me by saying that rather than unpredictable departures, I should always flag clearly to the dog that I was leaving. She also said that it's really important I come back the second BEFORE the panic starts. How is that even possible? How would I know, until it's started! Especially if I'm not there!! Very confusing to know what to do. Then after work I crated Roo while I went to the shops. 35 minutes. She did paw and bite a lot at the crate, but not in a frenzied way. Interestings things I learned today: "distress" signals (lip licking etc) are completely absent when Roo is alone. She doesn't do any of the trembly stuff. Not once! The 'panic' ie biting doors and crate, does not appear to be driven by distress. She didn't seem distressed at all. Nek said to me, she's learned "scrabbling at her confined state is just something she's learned to do when you're gone" (not those exact words but you get the idea). Well I think that is definitely true. But, how to unlearn it? I don't really know.....crate, or backyard, seems to be the same, she just does it. Hmmm. Well its a training/desensitisation procedure. You need to plan time, and organise your activities to fit it in. Leave Roo, and watch her from a hideaway, but do not re-enter if she is distressed. 5 minutes of this procedure regularly and often will soon take effect. If you have to go away for long periods, when you return, check her before she sees you and if she is quiet and settled then enter in. This way she makes an association between being calm and your appearance, so she will begin to behave calmly, instead of in a distressed manner, in order to get you to return. Regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyblush Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Thanks :) That goes okay when I'm in the house. I can't really leave or return without her knowing it, there's no way to leave the house without making a noise she recognises, keys locking/unlocking the door or garage roller door. I have tried drowning it with the TV but not sure the neighbours will love it on an ongoing basis! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tralee Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Thanks :) That goes okay when I'm in the house. I can't really leave or return without her knowing it, there's no way to leave the house without making a noise she recognises, keys locking/unlocking the door or garage roller door. I have tried drowning it with the TV but not sure the neighbours will love it on an ongoing basis! Make an effort! You need to put the dogs welfare ahead of your own self interest. Harsh, I'm sorry, but where there's a will, ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rosetta Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) . Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 Jelly - please just follow Nekhbet's advice re Roo, OK? Too many opinions here, and Nekh has actually been the only one to step up and physically give you help. The more trainers with different approaches you listen to, the more confused you and Roo will become. Nekh's advice hasn't steered you or Roo wrong yet, has it? It's taken some time fo Roo to get where she is right now, and it's going to take time to undo her learned behaviours - but I reckon you'll get there faster without involving different trainers with different methods. Give Nekh's advice some time, and I'm willing to bet that you will see the best results with Roo. Training Roo is as much about training you as it is about training her. T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nekhbet Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I also spoke to a trainer my vet asked me to call. She was very nice but confused me by saying that rather than unpredictable departures, I should always flag clearly to the dog that I was leaving. She also said that it's really important I come back the second BEFORE the panic starts. How is that even possible? How would I know, until it's started! Especially if I'm not there!! Very confusing to know what to do. This is actually the last thing a dog so heavily into habits needs, and Roo has those habits. That and Roo is panicking before you leave :laugh: yeah people's advice ... yeaaaah ... please don't go following a million different things, we will make Roo better just don't worry and be patient. I told you your behaviorist will not like me and my ideas, not because they don't work it's because of idealistic rivalries that tend to exist in dog training. It's your dog, your money, your life, if you're not happy don't feel guilty or pressured to do something you dont like or doesnt work. If she chews the crate give her something to chew on in there then. Put her squeaker in there remember in the car she started squeaking away to placate herself? A couple of toys or a sacrificial one you dont mind chewed to bits will help redirect her onto that instead. My 10 year old bitch still needs something to chew on in the car so I gave her sacrificial toys, no more whinging and carnage :laugh: If she hasn't burst out of that crate she's doing fine, actually the fact she's chewing and pawing means she's trying to find a productive way to release her anxiety. So, nothing else to do in there, chew crate. Give her a toy to redirect that on like a huge cheap rope smeared with peanut butter to get her started etc. Make an effort!You need to put the dogs welfare ahead of your own self interest. Harsh, I'm sorry, but where there's a will, ...... And you can keep opinions like this to yourself. Jelly has given up her entire life for this dog so far, it's time she takes it back and the dog settles down into a nice, calm, state. If you want to speak like this direct it to me and see what reply you really get. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdierikx Posted February 14, 2013 Share Posted February 14, 2013 I also spoke to a trainer my vet asked me to call. She was very nice but confused me by saying that rather than unpredictable departures, I should always flag clearly to the dog that I was leaving. She also said that it's really important I come back the second BEFORE the panic starts. How is that even possible? How would I know, until it's started! Especially if I'm not there!! Very confusing to know what to do. This is actually the last thing a dog so heavily into habits needs, and Roo has those habits. That and Roo is panicking before you leave :laugh: yeah people's advice ... yeaaaah ... please don't go following a million different things, we will make Roo better just don't worry and be patient. I told you your behaviorist will not like me and my ideas, not because they don't work it's because of idealistic rivalries that tend to exist in dog training. It's your dog, your money, your life, if you're not happy don't feel guilty or pressured to do something you dont like or doesnt work. If she chews the crate give her something to chew on in there then. Put her squeaker in there remember in the car she started squeaking away to placate herself? A couple of toys or a sacrificial one you dont mind chewed to bits will help redirect her onto that instead. My 10 year old bitch still needs something to chew on in the car so I gave her sacrificial toys, no more whinging and carnage :laugh: If she hasn't burst out of that crate she's doing fine, actually the fact she's chewing and pawing means she's trying to find a productive way to release her anxiety. So, nothing else to do in there, chew crate. Give her a toy to redirect that on like a huge cheap rope smeared with peanut butter to get her started etc. Make an effort!You need to put the dogs welfare ahead of your own self interest. Harsh, I'm sorry, but where there's a will, ...... And you can keep opinions like this to yourself. Jelly has given up her entire life for this dog so far, it's time she takes it back and the dog settles down into a nice, calm, state. If you want to speak like this direct it to me and see what reply you really get. Well said Nekh! T. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyblush Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 Make an effort! You need to put the dogs welfare ahead of your own self interest. Harsh, I'm sorry, but where there's a will, ...... If you read this thread and still said that, you are not very nice. If you didn't both reading the thread before replying.... make an effort! Jelly - please just follow Nekhbet's advice re Roo, OK? Too many opinions here, and Nekh has actually been the only one to step up and physically give you help. The more trainers with different approaches you listen to, the more confused you and Roo will become. Nekh's advice hasn't steered you or Roo wrong yet, has it? No, you are totally right. I feel sometimes that when people offer me help it's rude not to take it, but Nek's approach has showed more results than anything else to date and I am sticking with it, don't worry. If she chews the crate give her something to chew on in there then. Put her squeaker in there remember in the car she started squeaking away to placate herself? A couple of toys or a sacrificial one you dont mind chewed to bits will help redirect her onto that instead. My 10 year old bitch still needs something to chew on in the car so I gave her sacrificial toys, no more whinging and carnage :laugh: If she hasn't burst out of that crate she's doing fine, actually the fact she's chewing and pawing means she's trying to find a productive way to release her anxiety. So, nothing else to do in there, chew crate. Give her a toy to redirect that on like a huge cheap rope smeared with peanut butter to get her started etc. You are a star. I do remember that about the squeaker, she does have her soft toys in there, but will do some practicing today with the squeaker and kong. Managed to wrangle a half day working at home today so can do some crate stays. My boss is getting frustrated with me but for now he's still saying yes!! Roo has self-selected to sleep in the crate for 3 nights in a row now. It is definitely her new favourite place in the house when I'm home, no doubt about it. And you can keep opinions like this to yourself. Jelly has given up her entire life for this dog so far, it's time she takes it back and the dog settles down into a nice, calm, state. If you want to speak like this direct it to me and see what reply you really get. I think I might love you :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jellyblush Posted February 14, 2013 Author Share Posted February 14, 2013 (edited) I might love you too Snook! :laugh: I just found this place, I hadn't heard of it before. I might get better luck here than gumtree, so have approached a few people re. daycare for the coming weeks while I work on stabilising Roo a bit http://www.pethomestay.com/ Edited February 14, 2013 by Jellyblush Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 (edited) Jelly - please just follow Nekhbet's advice re Roo, OK? Too many opinions here, and Nekh has actually been the only one to step up and physically give you help.The more trainers with different approaches you listen to, the more confused you and Roo will become. Nekh's advice hasn't steered you or Roo wrong yet, has it?It's taken some time fo Roo to get where she is right now, and it's going to take time to undo her learned behaviours - but I reckon you'll get there faster without involving different trainers with different methods. Give Nekh's advice some time, and I'm willing to bet that you will see the best results with Roo.Training Roo is as much about training you as it is about training her. YES !!!! Don't be tempted to 'mix&match' Roo needs consistency and solid grounding ..and she will only get that from one way of doing things ... Edited February 15, 2013 by persephone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
persephone Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 Thanks :) That goes okay when I'm in the house. I can't really leave or return without her knowing it, there's no way to leave the house without making a noise she recognises, keys locking/unlocking the door or garage roller door. I have tried drowning it with the TV but not sure the neighbours will love it on an ongoing basis! Make an effort! You need to put the dogs welfare ahead of your own self interest. Harsh, I'm sorry, but where there's a will, ...... *sigh* I realise you have your own problems ... but this is such an unhelpful waste of a post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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