Please Help Me Save My Dog

[WoofnHoof]

It's interesting about the medication discussion, I personally hate the stigma that is attached to medication for mental issues both in people and in animals, it can really delay and hinder treatment for what are essentially legitimate issues. We medicate for all kinds of ailments, the brain is just a more complex organ to treat than injuries, we do know a lot about it but there are often very few neurological experts who are able to be consulted on this so it falls onto GPs and vets.

I do agree that it is problematic when meds are prescribed with little to no attention paid to whether a real pathology exists or whether it is a behavioural condition. I had a similar problem when I took on mum's SV, she had had the vet out about her storm anxiety in the past, the vet prescribed ACE which IMO made the problem worse, it was obvious (to me) that the anxiety still existed but the dog was unable to react normally and so it simply introduced another stressor. An owner who is switched on can tell when their animal is stressed regardless of whether a drug is masking the overt behaviours, because the anxiety is still showing up in other ways, with my girl she will still pant and generally looks agitated even on valium.

[corvus]

Medication is only a band aid when it is applied without the support of behaviour modification. It is supposed to be a foot in the door, not a cure all. I think it is irresponsible to suggest that because some people use it as a band aid it is over-used or it is ineffective, or it is problematic. The dog I mentioned was on medication and it was used as a band aid, but the owners didn't really have the skills to do any ongoing behavioural modification with him. Frankly, I wish they'd put him back on the medication. I think from dog sitting him that he was better off on it used as a band aid than off it wearing an e-collar, and it's his welfare I care about. I think it is irresponsible to suggest that because some people who take anti-depressants or whatever may find them the cause of more distress that dogs on drugs may be crying out inside their heads or something. There is no evidence for this that I know of, and the effect of these sorts of drugs on animals is reasonably well studied. There certainly are physiological and behavioural indicators we can use to get a pretty good picture of what is going on inside an animal. This is basically what my PhD is on. We don't know for certain and we don't know the details, but I think we know enough to be able to say with reasonable confidence whether an animal is in distress or not. It is hard enough for people to make these decisions for their pets as it is. Of all places, DOL is where the majority of people are going to be using medication as a foot in the door rather than a band aid. So don't make it harder for people to make humane decisions for their pets by continuing to stigmatise behavioural medication. It's not fair on those that are faced with this decision and not fair on the animals that may continue to suffer because someone said they thought drugs were making a dog unable to scream out for the help they needed and it sounded scary to people who love their animals. If you love your animals, consider medicating them when they are obviously in a state of chronic stress. There's no ifs or buts about it. It's not scary. The risks are well understood and will be managed. You won't have failed your pet, and you're not doing it because you like them a little quieter. You're doing it because you love them and you don't want them to suffer needlessly.

There are four people in my family who have or still do take anti-depressants and thank heavens for that because they are more functional people for it and it is very distressing to me to see loved ones struggling to cope. There generally was some chopping and changing as they found the right drugs and the right dosage for them. This is to be expected given everyone's brain chemistry is a little different. It's the same for dogs. It's worth persisting if you really think your dog is having serious and ongoing troubles coping with the everyday world. And sometimes that means finding a better doctor.

[Rosetta]

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Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta

[Rosetta]

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Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta

[Nekhbet]

I think from dog sitting him that he was better off on it used as a band aid than off it wearing an e-collar, and it's his welfare I care about.

So the long term harm to his organs and brain is not a concern to you? That's not caring about welfare, that's conceding defeat because you're limiting yourself in how you deal with things. And all at the expense of the dog.

I think it is irresponsible to suggest that because some people who take anti-depressants or whatever may find them the cause of more distress that dogs on drugs may be crying out inside their heads or something. There is no evidence for this that I know of, and the effect of these sorts of drugs on animals is reasonably well studied. There certainly are physiological and behavioural indicators we can use to get a pretty good picture of what is going on inside an animal. This is basically what my PhD is on. We don't know for certain and we don't know the details, but I think we know enough to be able to say with reasonable confidence whether an animal is in distress or not.

You give an animal medication to decrease stress reactions, then you test if it's stressed ... Animals can't talk to us, we rely on the researchers opinion to say if the animal is in stress or not, which is subjective. I also bolded the main point .... we don't know, but hey don't let that stand in the way of flooding these products onto the market We don't really understand what's happening to the dogs, we just know that some of them don't exhibit stress behaviors while on them and so that's good enough. My point is proceed with caution and an educated mind, DON'T follow blindly.

I have 2 science degrees Corvus, I'm not an idiot on these medications and mode of action, as well as long term effects. I have also helped a lot of dogs behaviorally over the years, my learning is not all books and other peoples studies I actually do the groundwork myself. The times dogs actually need these medications is a lot less then we give them, that is my point. Friends of mine were recently told to try clomicalm because the dog was unsettled at the vet, geezus they're the dog lollies of the 21st century now. We've lost reality - these medications were never just something to be handed over willy nilly, for people or animals. But we don't give owners the full story sometimes, and we don't emphasise how these medications are most effectively used. So that is why I am against the mass prescription of them for minor, ridiculous behaviors that can be easily fixed with a firm behavioral plan or in some cases, a good kick in the metaphorical bum for the dog.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I had a call last week from someone who wanted help with the dog she had adopted. Pretty much everyone she'd spoken to had suggested "sedation". I wondered just what behaviours were such a problem that people were recommending sedation?

Dog turned out to be 1 year of age. The undesired behaviours were that the dog was having toilet accidents at night, in the dark.

The dog has a habit of chewing things around the house (an iphone included) and jumping onto the dining room table.

I spent an hour on the phone with this lady - first thing to explain was that a 1 year old dog is going to be energetic and frequently dogs of this age will chew things up. I gave plenty of advice and strategies to deal with the issues and offered to keep helping.

I cannot believe people were suggesting sedation for this dog's behaviour, it's all pretty normal in my experience.

Edited February 17, 2013 by dogmad

[tdierikx]

I really think that SA in dogs is diagnosed almost as often as ADD in children... and the answer is the same, medicate to avoid NORMAL behaviour from dogs or humans if you don't want to engage them enough to not exhibit unwanted behaviours.

Jellyblush is awesome IMHO - she's taking so much on board to deal with Roo's undesirable behaviours. I'm sure her persistence will pay off well in the end.

T.

[Aidan3]

I think from dog sitting him that he was better off on it used as a band aid than off it wearing an e-collar, and it's his welfare I care about.

So the long term harm to his organs and brain is not a concern to you?

What long term harm are you referring to?

[mita]

[Yep. Roo knows without a doubt when I have ACTUALLY left as opposed to pretending, even when I unlock the front door and go out of it and just stand there, she knows the difference between that and leaving. Don't know how, but I know she does as it's evident from her reaction on the video.

She can smell you.

Dogs have an amazing capacity to scent. And you're not leaving via an air-tight door.

Recently, I heard a tip about SA that ties in to this scenario. The owner should hang something from the outside door knob that strongly has the scent of the owner on it. Dog constantly smells the scent thro' the door cracks .... & thinks, 'Momma, you're there!'

[mita]

Interesting thing...when I came upstairs this morning, I pottered around ignoring her for 15 minutes or so, then when I did go over to her and gave her a pat on the head, she reacted really calmly. Just a single thump of the tail. Normally it's frenetic tail thumping and furious licking of my hand. So that seems like a positive sign?

Very first thing that the UQ vet behaviorist said to me when I lobbed in with our soft furnishing-ripping sheltie, was... "To change her behaviour, we need to work on how you will now behave.' And in the list of things was to cut back on attention...

[pebbles]

" Recently, I heard a tip about SA that ties in to this scenario. The owner should hang something from the outside door knob that strongly has the scent of the owner on it. Dog constantly smells the scent thro' the door cracks .... & thinks, 'Momma, you're there!'"

And then proceeds to demolish the door to get to Momma!

Sorry Mita Just this vision popped into my mind.

[mita]

" Recently, I heard a tip about SA that ties in to this scenario. The owner should hang something from the outside door knob that strongly has the scent of the owner on it. Dog constantly smells the scent thro' the door cracks .... & thinks, 'Momma, you're there!'"

And then proceeds to demolish the door to get to Momma!

Sorry Mita Just this vision popped into my mind.

And a fair one, pebbles, in some circumstances.

Some dogs are content if their owner is somewhere nearby... they don't have to see the person. Others not. I recently read in a veterinary article that there are gradations in what dogs with tendency to separation anxiety will endure. Some are frantic for direct physical presence .... & a 'separating' door would be their enemy as you said.

From jelly's own description & video evidence, Roo seemed fine 'knowing' she was on the other side of the door. But it'd need to be tested.... for how long? Not that I'm telling jelly what to do. She makes her own decisions like all of us.

FOUND; This was the article from web.com Vet Medicine:

What classifies as a "separation"? This varies greatly between animals: some must have "their person" within their line of sight, other pets are fine as long as the owner is within a comfortable distance (i.e. somewhere else in the house), and still others are fine until the owner leaves.

Even finer distinctions would be animals that are fine for a certain period of time after their owner leaves, but then start to show signs of anxiousness some time later.

Just like the variance in what stresses out each individual, the signs of separation anxiety vary greatly as well.

Edited February 18, 2013 by mita

[pebbles]

I guess I've been lucky in my over 50yrs of having a fair number of dogs, various breeds, and not ever having one that had SA, frightened of thunder, storms etc. Had a few bossy devils who wanted to rule the roost until they learnt who was boss lol. Reading Jellys experiences I certainly admire anyone trying to handle those situations.

[Greytmate]

What classifies as a "separation"? This varies greatly between animals: some must have "their person" within their line of sight, other pets are fine as long as the owner is within a comfortable distance (i.e. somewhere else in the house), and still others are fine until the owner leaves.

Dogs generally can be trained to cope with differing distances from their owner while the owner is at home. All people should make an effort to train their dogs to cope with this, because if the dog is inadvertently trained to be overly-clingy while the owner is around by getting too much attention, it might have difficulties when the owner enforces a total separation. As you said before, it's about what the owner does when they are with the dog that needs to be considered. More than just looking at the undesirable behaviour in isolation from the rest of its life.

[corvus]

MY point was to counter the tirade against psychoactive drugs in dogs. Yes, some people do perhaps over-use them or over-prescribe them, although I have never had a vet suggest drugs to me for behaviour except when I had a dog with canine cognitive dysfunction, and this story seems to be common. When I spoke to my vet about this she was able to recall only a couple of cases where she had been involved in prescribing drugs to treat behavioural problems, and they were under the guidance of a veterinary behaviourist. Other vets are not so careful. I think this is a line of discussion that may do more harm than good on this forum where there are people struggling with drug-related decisions and being made to feel like they are just not skilled enough or trying hard enough when in actual fact they are doing everything right and their dog genuinely needs drug support. I don't know of anyone on DOL who is drugging their dog without a thought or care in the world, and I think if there are, all they really need to hear is that it is not a magic bullet and should not occur in isolation of any training or behaviour modification. I think it is fair to ask people to be considerate both of those dogs that genuinely need drugs and those people who are trying to do the right thing by their dog in the face of this stupid stigma against medicating dogs for behavioural troubles that can't easily be managed with behaviour modification alone. The stigma doesn't need to be fed. The idea that drugs can help troubled dogs does.

As to the rest of your post, Nekhbet... The more I learn the less I want to say. I hope that if people ever do find themselves with a troubled dog they do their own research on psychoactive drugs and look for good resources. I have a couple of dvds from Tawzer and the one from Karen Overall is particularly good. And she is considered the best. That's the kind of person I listen to. Someone who's learning is a whole lot of books and other people's studies and relevant formal tertiary courses, and her own research, AND a butt load of groundwork as well. It's a nice, rounded education, don't you think?

[Cosmolo]

I don't think anybody agrees with medication being used as a band aid solution with no behavioural modification. But when medication can assist in the behaviour modification process it should be used. I prefer to get the same results with natural supplementation where possible but have no issue with medication either.

Sounds like you are progressing well Jelly- she is a lucky dog.

[pebbles]

Perhaps the discussion on medication could be another thread in the Health Forum. This is a Jelly, Roo and Nekh. thread and I'm sure she doesn't want to be reading all this conflicting stuff. Actually this type of thing would be very educational on it's own.

[Jellyblush]

I like that idea Pebbles.

I think it is an interesting debate and one worth having, but I've made my decision as to the role of meds in working with Roo (i.e. as a tool to stabilise while I work using Nekh's ideas re training) and no amount of discussion here will change it.

Especially as both the meds and Nekh's approaches seem to be working! Crated all day today. 8 hours. Fine when I got home, less bent bars on crate than last time(i.e. only one which was one I'd forgotten to smear anti-roo-chew on) although her beanbag has a hole chewed in it and beans coming out which is a choking hazard.

[persephone]

(even tho I don't like the idea of dogs crated for so long)

you both did well ...I wonder which of you felt worse? ;)

Def. ditch the beanbag! My old Mitch ..he went into a boarding kennel with his nice new beanbag ..and the kennel owners were still finding beans for days :p

[pebbles]

That's great Jelly. Keep up the good work.

Those bean bags can be fun - friend had her Irish Setter stud dog locked in her lounge room overnight and he demolished a big bean bag. Same as your incident, Pers, beans floating from hiding places for months and she tells me you cant vac up beans lol.