Please Help Me Save My Dog

[Nekhbet]

Kenny was a barker & howler when I was at work I didn't slap him but the next best thing, was put a super sopper on the bin in front of the fence, so if he wouldn't stop barking, one of the neighbours would give him a spray, he was cured in 2 days.

But I guess you have to have a dog who hates water & good neighbours who will do it. :laugh:

Nekhbet probably doesn't agree with my method, but it worked.

Never said I wouldnt agree, that just sounds like he needed to shut up :laugh: My comments were in relation to true SA type behaviors, not just a dog carrying on because nothing stops it

If the problem is fixed by a few corrections I would question whether it was actually separation anxiety rather than a cued, attenion seeking, or boredom behaviour. No-one with a genuine mental illness was ever fixed by a few slaps to the face (no matter how many times it works in the movies!).

Bingo, exactly. Just because a dog does something doesnt immediately mean its SA, its banded about WAY too much to be honest and mostly self diagnosed.

I would have done better to spend that 2 hours on a Saturday afternoon at Nek's class!! Which next week I will if we're welcome Nek.

Stop asking, get your butt down there as often as you like

[Rosetta]

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Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta

[JulesP]

Yesterday I went to meet a woman I found on the pet minding matching site. I am finding I am struggling with people believing that Roo's behaviours are as I say they are. I said in the ad I put up that can't be alone, not even for a single second. We met, walked our dogs (she has a 9 y/o male foxie, they were great together), then she said "so I can do Monday and Friday but both days I got out for an hour, she'll be fine in the backyard, right". Er...wrong, or she'd be in my backyard! She was lovely though so I just said "why don't we try a walk round the block" thought I'd let Roo demonstrate for herself since people don't believe me! We are only about 10 metres away when Roo sails over the 2 metre fence.

That is disappointing that she would leave Roo considering she is a pet minding service but it proves what I said about most people wanting to go out even if they are home. I work from home but still go out to the shops or gym.

The person would need a tiger proof run if they want to go out.

[corvus]

Taking that premise further - do you think there is a role for e-collars in treatment of SA when the manifestation is barking? All theory at the moment say it is definitely a no-no as it heightens the anxiety.

I know a dog with SA who wears an anti-bark e-collar. It hasn't been formally diagnosed, but I've seen him in action and he exhibits most of the common symptoms. The e-collar has undoubtedly improved his behaviour in that he doesn't bark much anymore. I expect the barking was elevating his arousal and making him feel his situation more keenly. Without the barking his arousal stays lower, which is good for him. What is bad for him is that he's still clearly very anxious. It just manifests in less bothersome ways. He will mess in the house, he will whine and pace, he will spend a lot of his time at windows and doors looking for his attachment figure, he just doesn't annoy the neighbours. And he is on a knife edge as to what he can handle. If something unusual happens he pretty much loses it and barks in spite of the collar. It maybe gets the barking under control quicker. Who can say.

I think it's the wrong tool for the benefits it bestows. There are plenty of other ways to lower arousal that do not add to an already negative emotional state. But they don't really help in the long run. They just mask what is going on. For example, there's a study that shows that dogs crated with SA do less barking and pacing and so on, but they do more drooling and whining. I would hazard a guess that the lower arousal dog is probably better off in that they are not feeding off their own activity, but they are not cured. They are still in a lot of distress. It is subtle stuff, the play between arousal, emotional state and behaviour. If you get it wrong it's not always easy to tell where and why. SA is also a multi-faceted condition described entirely by symptoms. The root causes vary. At any rate, it shits me no end that there is a stigma about medicating dogs that are clearly in emotional distress. It's the humane thing to do, people.

[Rosetta]

[.

Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta

[Nekhbet]

I know a dog with SA who wears an anti-bark e-collar. It hasn't been formally diagnosed, but I've seen him in action and he exhibits most of the common symptoms. The e-collar has undoubtedly improved his behaviour in that he doesn't bark much anymore. I expect the barking was elevating his arousal and making him feel his situation more keenly. Without the barking his arousal stays lower, which is good for him. What is bad for him is that he's still clearly very anxious. It just manifests in less bothersome ways. He will mess in the house, he will whine and pace, he will spend a lot of his time at windows and doors looking for his attachment figure, he just doesn't annoy the neighbours. And he is on a knife edge as to what he can handle. If something unusual happens he pretty much loses it and barks in spite of the collar. It maybe gets the barking under control quicker. Who can say.

Well the dog is half way there... Block the windows and put sounds on to flood the brain like a talkback radio show, only feed him out of food toys and funnel the dog into something productive. I would be loathe to call that full blown SA but a dog that doesn't know what else to do with itself.

SA is also a multi-faceted condition described entirely by symptoms.

And which it's why it's also severely over diagnosed too. Scratch at the door or whimper and BANG ... SA dog! I'm not dismissing the fact there are genuine SA dogs out there but frankly, if your only option left is literally to medicate the dog in order to get some function and safety for the rest of its life, then there's a place for that animal. I did it with one of my own dogs because frankly, no animal deserves to live with NO ability to relax.

At any rate, it shits me no end that there is a stigma about medicating dogs that are clearly in emotional distress. It's the humane thing to do, people.

You go to a GP, have someone give their opinion on your behaviors and get a packet of medication. You take that medicine whether you like it or not. You don't feel too good but your friend thinks you look heaps better. You get taken back to the GP, GP thinks you're great and keep taking your medicine because from outward signs you seem calmer and improved. Meanwhile inside your brain is screaming to you, you feel confused and numb but you have no opinion.

Dogs cannot talk back. We think because the external reactions are gone the internal must be following and THATS where my problem lies. It's a band aid of the 21st century, they're not bloody nice and a dog cannot scream out for help or stop the meds when it's not understanding or coping with the internal reactions it's having. But we think it's fine more and more often, and that is what makes me mad. Oh, and the fact they are prescribed so quickly because most trainers/vets/behaviorists refuse to do anything but supposedly socially acceptable methods. Stress is not a bad thing in small doses. Fear, pain, avoidance, stress, anger they're all part of the learning process and they're normal parts of what comes out of a dog but we're too quick to jump on any of these reactions as abnormal. We've overshot the mark with dogs and gone too far ahead of ourselves. Sterility and lack of balance breeds problems, that is a fact. Using sterility and lack of balance to fix the said problems too, well have a think about that - where are you going to get to? Bulltish and band aids.

[Erny]

At any rate, it shits me no end that there is a stigma about medicating dogs that are clearly in emotional distress. It's the humane thing to do, people.

go to a GP, have someone give their opinion on your behaviors and get a packet of medication. You take that medicine whether you like it or not. You don't feel too good but your friend thinks you look heaps better. You get taken back to the GP, GP thinks you're great and keep taking your medicine because from outward signs you seem calmer and improved. Meanwhile inside your brain is screaming to you, you feel confused and numb but you have no opinion.

This is SO spot on. So many think that because the outward behaviour is drugged enough to not be as bothersome, the dog must be improved/better. I know for a fact (through someone else close to me) that the drugged state doesn't necessarily stop the mind from working and screaming out that something isn't right. But people think that because that person (or in this case, animal) is relaxed in dozy fashion, they must be feeling calmer.

Takes someone to look closer, beyond the surface.

Drugs are not a "no no" and they can be useful in severe cases, combined with behaviour training. But they do seem to becoming too readily and easily prescribed along with the over-diagnosed cases of SA, something I've been saying for ages. Someone says "medication worked for my dog" and people are rushing to the Vets asking for pills for their dog.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Erny

[Jellyblush]

From a place of genuine curiosity - how do we really KNOW that they are anxious inside? They may not be? I understand that we shouldn't assume they're calm because they look it, but equally we can't really assume that they're not.

People say that when they take anti anxiety medication or anti depressants, they DO feel better inside, which lets them operate with some level of proficiency in life until such time as they have learned coping mechanisms or are back on track.

How do we know it isn't true of dogs?

[Erny]

That's right, Jellyblush. But this is where, IF it is to be given, the prescription of drugs needs to be met judiciously AND in combination with careful behaviour modification. I am seeing more and more where drugs are being prescribed quickly and seemingly easily WITHOUT instruction, education, advice or engagement of the behaviour training that needs to go with it. Either that or the intention was to engage help with behaviour modification but because the drug chilled out the dog, nothing collateral was pursued.

The safer assumption is that the medicated dog (or person) isn't feeling as relaxed as they might seem and that the purpose of the medication is to slow the mind down a bit so that behaviour training/modification has a chance.

BUT, there are quite a few dogs I have been called out to see where medication was prescribed but (a) not given or (b) given but abandoned and behaviour modification techniques engaged was what helped the dogs through, basically meaning that drugs weren't necessary in the first place.

Too many people are resting on aesthetics only.

ETA: Jellyblush - just to clarify. My comment about people "rushing to vet for drugs" was not specifically directed towards you. The comment is for general reading, thought and consideration. You've gone through a lot and I would say you are one of those wonderful owners a trainer thoroughly enjoys and loves working with. You take on board help and follow it through with dedication and consistency, to give it every chance to work through.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Erny

[Jellyblush]

Haha - so my calves are telling me right now, they are ACHING from the constant stair climbs!

Thanks for clarifying, I understand what you are saying now, and agree. For me, medication has a place as something that can stabilise an inflamed situation long enough to see whether the behavioural strategies employed are having any impact, with careful monitoring of dose and looking out for any side effects, including by video when I'm not home.

When my dog is at her most frenzied, there is not much hope of any learning being done.

That said though, I do also wonder about the impact of the meds on the learning via training programs - and specifically the role of state dependant learning in this scenario.

I think it is interesting that you guys think vets are quick to prescribe. Mine didn't mention them until I did - he gave me recommendations for a behaviourist and a couple of trainers, plus a DAP, but that's it until I asked for meds following advice from another forum.

A lot is said about 'trends' in diagnosis in relation to human medicine, and I think it's broadly accepted that these exist, so no surprise it happens to dogs as well I suppose.

[Erny]

I think it is interesting that you guys think vets are quick to prescribe.

Not all Vets. But it is becoming a more common practice than it ever was and in some cases without it being set-up so that behaviour modification is also occurring simultaneously.

Jellyblush - the main thing for you at the moment is that things are making some inroads to improvement, small or otherwise. It doesn't matter at the moment that you tease out one thing from another from another from another. Get the improvement to a manageable level and then you can slowly and carefully wean off the medication, watching for signs of regression when doing so. If you have the behaviour well managed before you do that, you'll have room to move when fading off the drugs to quickly resume without too much if any damage to the behaviour training occurring.

Edited February 17, 2013 by Erny

[Erny]

By the way, "behaviourists" - highly recommended - are the ones who "diagnosed" SA

??? Are you saying here that the behaviourists who you highly recommend are the ones who diagnosed SA?

Do you believe this to be "SA" in this instance?

Just not sure what you're meaning here so looking for clarification.

:)

Edited February 17, 2013 by Erny

[Rosetta]

[

Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta

[Nekhbet]

Erny has some extremely valid points. Where is the line drawn between medicating for the right reasons and going in conjunction, to when it becomes convenience and pseudo-results.

Remember medications in order to have this affect have to work somehow on the brain. Scientifically we are not that good. We understand some things but why some people see things and have traumatizing reactions while others think it's the best thing since sliced bread, well, they're not 100% sure. Even for people it's not an exact science, do you know how many migrants are addicted to their 'nerve' medication? Doctors gave it to them when they came over, they're still popping in their 70's because noone helped them emotionally along the way. Pull them off now and it would be unbearable.

Life experiences cannot be fixed with a pill. I've seen it in people and animals, and I've heard it from doctors mouths. If there is a genuine imbalance, the pills help. Otherwise the brain has to adjust to these new levels and wow.... wow ... all I can say is why do you think most medications have warnings about if you already have X, Y, Z thoughts or ideas to stay away.

[Erny]

If we accept that a dog's behaviour can demonstrate that it is feeling stress why not accept that calm behaviour can demonstrate that it is feeling relaxed?

Because in the latter, it doesn't automatically go to follow. It's not that black and white. So assume on the safe side, not on the side that simply suits what we want to think.

ETA: There is a term for that style of thinking (i.e. the sentence quoted) but I can't quite think of it atm.

ETA: Ah! I remember the term ...... "Invalid Inductive Reasoning".

Edited February 17, 2013 by Erny

[Jellyblush]

Rosetta, don't be silly - I think it's interesting to discuss SA more broadly.

Meanwhile, I have a question for you all .I have no care for Roo tomorrow. We've built up to 3 hours in crate now. Should I crate her tomorrow, risking that she might get distressed in there and learn to hate it, or put her in the backyard, knowing that she will self harm there as it's such a habit?

Any thoughts?

I didn't know that about migrants. What was supposed to be wrong with their 'nerves' in the first place? Stress of their experience?

[persephone]

Jelly ..talk with Nekhbet ..she is the trainer concerned ..and knows Roo, and how she reacts ..

none of us have seen what goes on ..Nekh is working with you and is the professional.

[Sheridan]

My view is discuss with Nekhbet, too. :)

She would probably be safer in the crate but can she hang on for hours?

[Jellyblush]

Thanks guys, you'e right, I have sent Nekh a message, she's been spot on about everything so far.

[mantis]

name='Nekhbet' timestamp='1361058789' post='6125790']

Kenny was a barker & howler when I was at work I didn't slap him but the next best thing, was put a super sopper on the bin in front of the fence, so if he wouldn't stop barking, one of the neighbours would give him a spray, he was cured in 2 days.

But I guess you have to have a dog who hates water & good neighbours who will do it. :laugh:

Nekhbet probably doesn't agree with my method, but it worked.

[quote| Never said I wouldnt agree, that just sounds like he needed to shut up :laugh: My comments were in relation to true SA type behaviors, not just a dog carrying on because nothing stops it

If the problem is fixed by a few corrections I would question whether it was actually separation anxiety rather than a cued, attenion seeking, or boredom behaviour. No-one with a genuine mental illness was ever fixed by a few slaps to the face (no matter how many times it works in the movies!).

I wasn't having a go at you Neks, more the fact I was taking the easy option. Kenny was seriously SA dog, he chewed up many beds, couches, doonas clothes & anything else he could find, the reason I left him outside when I wasn't home.

Edited February 17, 2013 by mantis