Please Help Me Save My Dog

[rusty&biscuit]

Have read this thread everyday...so happy to hear how much Roo is progressing, thanks to the her very dedicated "mum" and the very generous Nekhbet I have found this hugely inspirational, and I can't wait to keep following and see how far Roo comes :D Thanks for sharing the information too Nekhbet, it is all very interesting to me :)

[WoofnHoof]

I agree Nek, meds certainly have a place but people don't always see that the stress tends to feed itself and its not necessarily the initial trigger that is the problem, it's the continual reinforcement of whatever the dog is doing, and dogs are so very much in tune to people that it can be hard for the owner to separate the trigger from the reinforcement.

Sounds like Roo is well and truly on track :)

[Rosetta]

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Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta

[Panzer Attack]

This isn't much, but I have an almost full bottle of Clomicalm 20 that I'd be happy to post to you :) It doesn't work for my little special one unfortunately.

[hankdog]

Interesting approach Nekhbet, we have taken Jake out with another dog, parallel walking...much freaking out and hissy fitting that eventually faded probably out of exhaustion. Once quiet I told him "good boy" and hey presto immeadiately started up again. I think the most profound thing I have read is "Dogs do what works." You just have to try figure out what it is they're getting out of it.

[CollieChaos]

I'm not sure if you saw my older post, but my work (the pets hotel) does first day daycare for $24 (half price) and there are packs as well, including a monthly pack which i think is $980. The hours are 7am-7pm weekdays, 9-5 weekends and we always have availabilities. If you ever got stuck again, you could call us and drop her in anytime.

[Nekhbet]

Interesting approach Nekhbet, we have taken Jake out with another dog, parallel walking...much freaking out and hissy fitting that eventually faded probably out of exhaustion. Once quiet I told him "good boy" and hey presto immeadiately started up again. I think the most profound thing I have read is "Dogs do what works." You just have to try figure out what it is they're getting out of it.

The trick is to try and go in with an open, blank slate mind - If you try and understand from your perspective why a dog does something we find ridiculous you will go certifiably insane. Instead, you look from the dogs perspective and remember their scale of reactions is not the same as ours either. A dog can find being very wound up a positive thing, then we reinforce it or do not change it as owners and wonder why we then have a spinning, screaming, thrashing animal on our hands. I come from a background of working, sport and protection dogs in particular, imagine a dog running and hitting a decoy, lifted off the ground, hit and thrown. How rewarding does it have to be for that dog to take all that and go in for more :) dog logic, as I tell everyone, don't understand it just roll with it :laugh:

A dog will naturally experiment with things and see what happens - is the reaction positive or negative? Was it reinforced or corrected? It's why I also do not understand this idea floating around that corrections cannot be used with reactive or anxious dogs. You need to stop dogs somehow so they can learn, their brains need to be engaged back into learning mode. If they are not in a suitable frame of behavior to be rewarded what can you do? Nothing at all. So, dog ends up exhibiting behaviors without anything 'stopping' them, hence inadvertently reinforcing them in a lot of cases. Yes you need to know what you're doing but it's not that difficult a method that you can do long term harm (unless you're standing there screaming and throwing the dog around but we don't do that)

Owners also add to behaviors by interacting with a dog when it's highly anxious. Trust me I have suffered anxiety attacks and when you're in that mode nothing rational comes through the panic filter. In fact forced interaction can ramp up a brain that is not thinking properly, ergo increase the reaction. Classic example is doing pulling and carrying on when it sees another dog, with owner yelling name and commands. Why? Dog's not listening, owner is more and more frustrated, dog is more excitable because owner is screaming something intelligable. Instead let the dog go out, get corrected on the collar and let it think, let it learn, let it go 'oh damn that was stupid wasn't it'. You need to balance the good with the odd bad, that's life.

My theories are not new. They're actually decades of dog training and behavioral methods that have been forgotten or had people frightened off them because they don't fit in with modern dog training fashions and organisations. Dogs havn't changed in that time though, so all we can do is throw them out of balance. Stay in the middle lane, your dogs behavior will follow :)

I'll send you all an invoice through PMs

[Nekhbet]

I think there is something in what you say. In my dog's case I often wonder whether his behaviour - that is barking when left alone - has become a habit and he thinks that is just what he does when alone. Perhaps in his head he thinks that when the treats and puzzles come out it means distraction for a while then when he finishes with them comes the time for barking.

Why not? It's apparently something he might think is just what you do when the door's shut. Behaviors like this don't always have root in severe emotional issues, a lot of the time they can be a learned behavior that has rolled on due to several factors

- breed

- genetic temperament and nerve

- environment

- owner interaction (or lack of)

You would be surprised too how many dogs are owner mediated - well anyone who works in animal industry won't really be. Dog exhibits behavior for owner, owner goes dog is totally different. Roo I don't expect to quickly get better at home as quick as out of the home because of all those triggers she has at home to get her anxious - thats where the uphill part of changing it comes in. Dogs are masters of subtle triggers, they attach not only behavior but emotional state to those triggers. As I told Jelly, we rely on this concept when we train protection dogs - one quick command and the dog is at level 10 straight away because we have conditioned that particular word or sound to do that. Now have a good think what you do that immediately incites frenzy - usually the treats, fridge, leash, certain word etc. So why not the dog make up these things itself because you've been fulfilling it's expectations of how the pattern of behavior is to be completed? Shut door, have a woof, go eat treat toys, get bored now, woof some more. Repeat. Repeat. Repeat. It's not stopped, it's not changed, and dogs happily gripping to heavy routines will go with it.

Try and change it confusion sets in ... if there is noone to guide the dog through the confusion dog pushes to go back to routine, or dog then makes up alternative behavior to deal with the confusion. If it works, they stick with that new one.

[hankdog]

haha if I had to pay for every bit of good advice I got on this forum I'd be more broke than I am now! Sorry Jelly taking this thread off topic.

Edited February 13, 2013 by hankdog

[WoofnHoof]

Sounds very much like horse training theory, similar one-size-fits-all warm and fuzzy type training programmes abound in this field as well. I think the main reason many of these programmes have moved away from correction is that a lot of people don't have the feel or timing to correctly apply it. But the softly softly approach doesn't always work either, it just sells more books and DVDs because it sounds better. Even though many of those methods can be applied they can't be applied with the same degree of success if they lack timing and feel which is the one variable which accounts for individual differences, without that there is nothing. We need to learn to read the animals half as well as they read us :)

Anyway hope Roo and Jelly have had a good day today :)

[Sheridan]

Hope Roo was okay when you got home today, Jelly.

[Nekhbet]

I think the main reason many of these programmes have moved away from correction is that a lot of people don't have the feel or timing to correctly apply it.

Really? Or have they just been convinced of that fact? ;) That's more where I'm getting at

[WoofnHoof]

I think the main reason many of these programmes have moved away from correction is that a lot of people don't have the feel or timing to correctly apply it.

Really? Or have they just been convinced of that fact? ;) That's more where I'm getting at

Well I'd assume they haven't been taught, mind you some people will never have feel or timing, google Linda Parelli for a prime example of this.

ETA plus you can't teach feel and timing in a 2 disc set for $199.95

Edited February 13, 2013 by WoofnHoof

[Simply Grand]

Love it Nek, makes so much sense to me

I think I've done an ok job of applying what you say to my three but I got them all as well adjusted babies so was going in on the front foot. And it's still hard to be consistent with it! I have so much admiration for people who can get the results in a dog who already has some not so well adjusted patterns ingrained!

WnH, funny you say it sounds like horse training theory, it also sounds to me a lot like human developmental psychology theory...

[persephone]

When Mum died ..her old dog(around 13 now) would yip all night , bang on doors , etc , wherever we put her .. she would often also toilet inside. It was very upsetting to see ... but eventually I got sick of it,(and a lack of sleep) and tied her up on the back porch ..with ample bedding , treats of a night ... and she has been fantastic now for months!! Not even toileting most of the time ..and she can if she need to there ..it's a long chain .she sleeps very soundly , and is happy as Larry!

So, things we don't notice, are often at work...

[Simply Grand]

Absolutely Perse. I've noticed recently there are a couple of words (commands) I taught Saxon or Riley as puppies then stopped using, really didn't think they were proofed compared to what I've continuously worked on training them, yet I've said the word 12 months later and they've responded with what they originally learnt!

amazing what goes on in their brains.

[Jellyblush]

I'm not sure if you saw my older post, but my work (the pets hotel) does first day daycare for $24 (half price) and there are packs as well, including a monthly pack which i think is $980. The hours are 7am-7pm weekdays, 9-5 weekends and we always have availabilities. If you ever got stuck again, you could call us and drop her in anytime.

Thanks CollieChaos. I think this is a lovely tip, unfortunately, I can't afford those prices. My budget for care is about $100 pw... I wish it was larger but it won't help either of us if I am stressing about the mortgage!

haha if I had to pay for every bit of good advice I got on this forum I'd be more broke than I am now! Sorry Jelly taking this thread off topic.

Totally agree, and don't be silly, I think this is completely ON topic

Even though many of those methods can be applied they can't be applied with the same degree of success if they lack timing and feel which is the one variable which accounts for individual differences, without that there is nothing. We need to learn to read the animals half as well as they read us :)

Anyway hope Roo and Jelly have had a good day today :)

Thanks - today was...er... ok. I Think part of the issue is that as companion animals, it isn't necessary for people to put a lot of time into understanding their dogs. People think dogs are there for THEIR convenience, rather than seeing it for the complementary relationship it can be...and as a result, look for ideas that suit the person's view of what is appropriate, not the dogs. After all, people are generally a bit crap at putting themselves in other peoples shoes. Let alone their dogs booties ;) and doing what is right for them

Plus, it is VERY hard to know what to do as a average person, without being told. So you go to your vet, and do whatever they say, because your only choice is listen to them or Bondi Vet or Cesar Milan!

Anyway.... we did ok today. Roo went to a friends. Who gave me a lecture about how my anxiety about Roo was feeding Roo's anxiety and I was a bad owner. Although the first part of this is almost certainly true, I'm doing my best, and it upset me. I can't just 'switch off' worrying about her, although after Nek's advice I am trying really hard to control it.

Roo on the other hand had a good day. We are up to 25 minutes alone in crate now, and last night she chose independantly to sleep in it (her normal bed is in hallyway outside my room, crate is upstairs in house - as far as she can be from me). I think this is encouraging.

We pick up her treadmill tomorrow. My plan for the rest of the week is to keep increasing crate time, and working on being as matter'of'fact and emotionaless when interacting with her as possible. Not unkind, but blunt and not especially loving either.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Jellyblush

[WoofnHoof]

Love it Nek, makes so much sense to me

I think I've done an ok job of applying what you say to my three but I got them all as well adjusted babies so was going in on the front foot. And it's still hard to be consistent with it! I have so much admiration for people who can get the results in a dog who already has some not so well adjusted patterns ingrained!

WnH, funny you say it sounds like horse training theory, it also sounds to me a lot like human developmental psychology theory...

Not a coincidence SG actually, Skinner's work pretty much forms the basis of most of the pop psychology that is now applied to animals (and packaged neatly into books and DVDs interestingly enough), I'm not a huge fan generally although I can see the usefulness and the applicability. I will always advocate feel and timing as critical in any training or behavioural management application.

ETA just saw your post Jelly sounds like everything is still on track, in can be hard to ignore them but I often find that a lot of dogs get so much out of being around us, even if we aren't directly interacting with them, so don't feel bad she is still spending time with you when you are home. Sounds like the crate work is going well too :)

Edited February 13, 2013 by WoofnHoof

[Simply Grand]

I know it's not a coincidence, that was my (badly expressed) point ;)

Totally agree with you about feel and timing. That's a big part of why I think Caesar is dangerous, I recently watched his first season (26 eps I think) and I think he actually does have a good idea of what HE is doing with dogs, but for people who really don't know to take advice from a 1/2 hour tv show is so dangerous.

Jelly, don't let anyone make you feel like a bad owner, you absolutely are not. You know you have to be a bit tough on Roo now and you're doing it, and all you've done before is what you've been told will help her.

[Rosetta]

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Edited March 15, 2013 by Rosetta