Teaching A Dog To Relax

[corvus]

If I hear one more person say "teach them to relax on their bed or in a crate" I might scream. It may be relevant,

I didn't see a single person say that.

If no one said that then you have no reason to be defensive.

Honest, I really am just very tired of hearing it, and it comes up so often. It's like someone saying "Did you know you can put these letters together and make words?" *grinds teeth* Yes. I did. Like I said, maybe it's news to some people and helpful information. I still might scream the next time I hear it, though. Can't make any promises. I have not much interest in other people's experiences with teaching high drive and/or high energy dogs to settle at this point. I have my own experiences, which seem more relevant to me. Doesn't invalidate yours, though. The world can simultaneously hold two people with contrary experiences without imploding.

To the OP, I also find treat dispensing toys should be used with caution. I think massage is a great place to start. You should see if it's going to help very quickly. Remember long, slow strokes. E particularly responds to firm massage around his haunches. The Relaxation Protocol is gold. If you can, do it! Every dog I have from here on will do the RP early on. Most people I have spoken with who have used it have found it to be helpful. It's very adaptable. It looks easy, but some dogs find it very challenging. It took me five days repeating Day 1 before Erik could do it without barking or pacing partway through. I would particularly recommend it if your dog has trouble settling in other places as well as home. Because of RP Erik can now be taken most places and be expected to have a little explore and then lie down and chill for at least a while. He used to bark incessantly. I was pretty chuffed when he went for quiet downs instead.

ETA I forgot to mention the soothing effects of licking and chewing. If you haven't tried a frozen Kong, give it a go. We stuff ours with the mince and veggie mix the dogs get for their dinners when they aren't getting bones. Erik gets a lot of his food this way. It made a very big difference, and has been a pivotal part of treating his terror/hatred of our cleaners. Nothing I tried really helped until it occurred to me to give him a frozen Kong in his crate when they arrived.

Edited January 25, 2013 by corvus

[WreckitWhippet]

Clearly the dog needs more physical exercise and mental stimulation, it's going to need to be more than once a week.

Surely you can get you OH to take him for a walk once a day as a start ?

With regards to finding some training time and wearing the dog out mentally, you don't have to leave home or make a lot of time to do it. Keep a treat jar and clicker somewhere handy and give the dog a couple of minutes here and there, you can train on your kitchen floor, in the lounge. Teaching him to lay and stay on a mat or in a bed as the others have suggested is a great idea.

[huski]

I'll be honest and say at the moment he only gets a long walk once a week, and a long game of fetch every day in the yard (decent sized yard), and when I have a day off I do a bit of training like teaching him to sit/drop from a distance. I don't feel as though this is enough for him but I simply don't have the time to do what I really want to at the moment (agility) I can't even commit to any classes because I'm a shift worker and my hours are so erratic, I'm the only money earner at the moment and I study....as much as OH loves the dogs he unfortunately has no idea nor any interest in training them

I do sometimes wonder if he would be better rehomed, but I can't see OH agreeing to it, we rescued him from the RSPCA when he was about 8 months so his past is completely unknown...I'm probably stupid for even thinking about rehoming him because he has come a long way since we first got him a little over a year ago, he used to get horribly car sick but we now have him riding in the car with no problems, we're currently transitioning him out of riding in the crate

At least you are honest about what he is getting :) It sounds like he needs a lot more mental stimulation and outlets for using his brain and drive. I don't go to classes and often work long hours so the time I have to put into my dogs can be limited (I also don't walk them regularly) but even a few minutes of training a day when it's giving him drive satisfaction and tiring him out mentally as well as physically can be really beneficial. My bet is that he is desperate to do some more work and I would guess that with even short training sessions each day you will see an improvement in his ability to settle and relax in the evenings assuming the training is appropriate for his level of drive etc.

Honest, I really am just very tired of hearing it, and it comes up so often. It's like someone saying "Did you know you can put these letters together and make words?" *grinds teeth* Yes. I did. Like I said, maybe it's news to some people and helpful information. I still might scream the next time I hear it, though. Can't make any promises. I have not much interest in other people's experiences with teaching high drive and/or high energy dogs to settle at this point. I have my own experiences, which seem more relevant to me. Doesn't invalidate yours, though. The world can simultaneously hold two people with contrary experiences without imploding.

I don't understand the need for the dramatic 'I will scream if one more person mentions crates or mats'. I am looking after four working line dogs here right now, all of which can settle and turn off when required, but it sounds like you still have issues with Erik being able to do the same thing? I am not having a go, but I don't understand why you are so quick to discount and run down others experiences and suggestions when it sounds like something you still have issues with yourself. We can always learn more.

Edited January 25, 2013 by huski

[corvus]

I don't understand the need for the dramatic 'I will scream if one more person mentions crates or mats'. I am looking after four working line dogs here right now, all of which can settle and turn off when required, but it sounds like you still have issues with Erik being able to do the same thing? I am not having a go, but I don't understand why you are so quick to discount and run down others experiences and suggestions when it sounds like something you still have issues with yourself. We can always learn more.

You don't understand obviously because you are not me. I have not been quick to discount or run down other's experiences. I'm just frustrated because of all the things I tried I think it was the least effective, yet it's the most common thing I see recommended. I don't want other people to feel like if they can't get this to work they are not trying hard enough. I think that all dogs should be given structured down time, and both mine were as puppies. I think that if you have a dog that is difficult to settle, you are best served by trying to figure out why they are having such problems and try to treat that. This is what has been most effective in helping Erik. I spoke to a number of people with stacks more experience than me about it and got plenty of good advice. The best I got was to give him time-consuming stuff to do with his mouth. It made a big difference.

I don't think I really still have problems getting him to settle, but given I am with him very close to 24/7, it's hard to get perspective on the issue. It's been the most difficult and long-standing problem I've had with him. I think he is better now than he ever has been. He is Erik, though, and sometimes he has stuff to get out of his system and me grumping at him or telling him to lie down is not going to take care of his basic needs. I am just trying to encourage a critical treatment of the problem. So the dog can't relax indoors. Why not? Maybe it's not simply because they haven't been taught to.

Incidentally, I spent this week with WL dogs. I'm tired, frazzled, and my cynicism is through the roof. And I'm suddenly of the opinion that my Vallhund is the most f***ing awesome dog in the world. At this point I don't think experiences with WL dogs count for much. I think you have to take the dog you've got and work out what their individual needs are and go from there.

[Weasels]

I suspect that going to her mat works on Chess because most of her agitated behaviour is attention-seeking: once she realised no more attention is available, the work we have done on reinforcing calm kicks in and she settles.

It doesn't work so well with Weez though because he only occasionally seeks attention, so his internal buzziness will carry on regardless (he'll just sit and bark). It has taken a long time to get him to enjoy pats and engage with us more, so using massage on him has been a recent development and possibly a side effect of teaching him to enjoy grooming. Works a treat though.

So, different problems, different solutions. I certainly wouldn't assume an inability to settle was the owner's fault. Chess takes about 4-5 hours to stop being incredibly intense if we have guests over, it's just too much fun for her; I can imagine living with a dog who's like that 24/7 would be very stressful!

Edited January 26, 2013 by TheLBD

[koalathebear]

You don't understand obviously because you are not me. I have not been quick to discount or run down other's experiences. I'm just frustrated because of all the things I tried I think it was the least effective, yet it's the most common thing I see recommended. I don't want other people to feel like if they can't get this to work they are not trying hard enough.

I am pro crate/mat as helping a a dog to relax but I also know what you mean corvus :D Elbie is one of those dogs that I was constantly getting unhelpful advice for:

1. Just run him around a bit more

2. Get him a tread mill

3. Have you tried using a clicker?

4. Just get him to focus on you

Blah blah blah BLAH. Drove me bonkers. Not all solutions fit all dogs - I am just lucky that I am able to settle my dogs with mat/crate in the house. They still get excited with strangers though :p

[Cosmolo]

While i agree with some of the sentiments here- what on earth do you expect people to say when they are either asked the question on a forum, in conversation or really anywhere except a behaviour consultation?

Frequently i will be having a conversation with someone and they ask a question about their dog. I try to give a snippet of some info that might be helpful followed by- you really need a consult. Anything else will take forever and be guessing anyway because the dog is not there to see. Behavioural work is complex, multi faceted and almost never black and white- yet people want simple answers. Finding a balance between these realities is difficult.

I'm not sure what you expect people to say in these contexts Corvus?

[Lablover]

Any worthwhile thoughts in this link?

http://michaelellisschool.com/vid_qa3.htm

[corvus]

Chess takes about 4-5 hours to stop being incredibly intense if we have guests over,

Erik used to be like that! For everything! When I first started my PhD and was working from home again, if someone delivered a package or a truck came down the street or something like that, he would fire up and he would take several hours to calm down again. Then he'd snooze for an hour or two, wake up, and start up again. I found rewarding for staying on his bed was too time consuming. He would do the down like a coiled spring thing. Even when I got the Manners Minder and could leave him to do down-stay training without my full attention he never really relaxed, so the problems persisted. I even tried biofeedback and held off rewarding until the tail went down and his eyes went soft. I started with a clicker and quickly dumped it because it got him too aroused. I would very quietly and slowly slip him a treat because anything faster or accompanied by a noise would make his tail spring up and his eyes light up. I am happy to report he is nowhere near that bad anymore. Usually he's back to baseline in a minute or two at most. I'm sure down on a mat or bed or crate would be much more effective with him now than it was when I was doing it at first because he is generally much calmer. I just haven't really tried it because I haven't felt I needed to. He's not been giving me a lot of problems. Maybe what I consider problems are not what other people would and vice versa.

It occurred to me that Leslie McDevitt has some good info on mat training for dogs that don't know how to relax. She asks that the dogs do the Relaxation Protocol first, and also uses a lot of massage and what she calls passive attention work. She is very focused on getting that arousal down. It's sound advice I think.

Didn't realise my expression of frustration was going to get so many noses out of joint. I just had a moment where I identified with the OP and thought they might feel frustrated as well. Reaching across cyberspace can be a blundering affair. I'll leave you guys to it.

[TigerJack]

Ill have a read of that link later when I'm on the computer, we've tried teaching him to stay on a mat but he just sits there all wound up ready to pounce as soon as we release him, crating, well he is happy to relax in a crate at night to sleep, but good luck getting him in during the day or getting him to stay in past dawn, he just WON'T settle, we've lost several covers thinking if we make it dark in there he will relax, they get destroyed in minutes

Another thing we've noticed is if he is sitting with my partner he will eventually relax and lay with him asleep, but with me he never does, he is constantly licky and squirmy and won't chill out

Have you actually played crate games with him or just shut him in there? Crate games will increase the value for the crate so they actually enjoy time in there. Susan Garrett's DVD is good at explaining it. My Kelpie boy will not settle in the house, prolws around seeking attention or seeking interaction with all the other dogs who are doing the right thing and staying settled on their beds. I never mat trained him so he wanders off if he is just sent to a bed. Ask him to get in his crate though and he dives in and promptly lies down and is asleep inside 2 minutes. Its his little cave. I spent a long time on crate games so he does know its his space to relax in.

I was doing crate work with him when we first got him and he would bound in as soon as I told him 'in your box' but he still wouldn't relax in there during the day, if I didn't let him out he would tear at the covers or bark or pull on the gate with his paws...yet he would sleep in the crate every night (and still does)

Get a look at the crate games dvd. Its more than just in your box and reward. You also have different stages of games where they get rewarded for in and out and choosing the right behaviour. Makes them think about it and makes the crate much more valuable, not just for night time sleeping. The games aren't complicated and don't take long to do. (Side effect is it helps with a nice reliable sit stay for an agility start line behaviour or just a good long sit stay.)

[huski]

While i agree with some of the sentiments here- what on earth do you expect people to say when they are either asked the question on a forum, in conversation or really anywhere except a behaviour consultation?

Frequently i will be having a conversation with someone and they ask a question about their dog. I try to give a snippet of some info that might be helpful followed by- you really need a consult. Anything else will take forever and be guessing anyway because the dog is not there to see. Behavioural work is complex, multi faceted and almost never black and white- yet people want simple answers. Finding a balance between these realities is difficult.

I'm not sure what you expect people to say in these contexts Corvus?

I agree, whilst no dog is the same, it is really hard to give specific advice over the internet because ultimately you are just taking a guess. Suggestions like teaching a dog to settle in a crate or mat are common suggestions because they are a good place to start. IMO, if your dog can't relax and turn off in a crate then for whatever reason, it is not crate trained.

I think a lot of the issues people experience with higher drive/energy dogs and really most dogs, does come down to how they are being managed and what behaviours they are being allowed to experiment and form habits with. I am not saying it's the owners fault, but there are things we can change and do differently that will help the dog learn appropriate behaviour.

If I let my Mal for eg have free run of the house all the time, I would have to be on top of her constantly to make sure she didn't learn behaviours that were undesirable. I don't have her out the whole time (and sometimes not at all) when guests come over because she's too full on for most people, and while she can relax and chill out while guests are over, if I let her loose with them she'd probably scare most people just with her natural exuberance :laugh: A lot of it comes down to knowing your dog and what level of management is required to make you both happy.

[huski]

You don't understand obviously because you are not me. I have not been quick to discount or run down other's experiences.

Except when you said;

I have not much interest in other people's experiences with teaching high drive and/or high energy dogs to settle at this point. I have my own experiences, which seem more relevant to me.

Perhaps I misunderstood what you were saying, but clearly you aren't interested in anyone's experiences outside of your own, hence my comment that you are quick to discount others experiences. As you said yourself, you aren't interested.

And I'm suddenly of the opinion that my Vallhund is the most f***ing awesome dog in the world.

That's impossible, because I have the most f***ing awesome dog in the world right here ;) :laugh:

[Lablover]

Corvus, you mention you were involved with working line dogs during the week.

Private or Government? What type of work?

[Kavik]

And what type of dog Corvus?

I'm jealous - would love to spend more time with working line dogs that are not my own :) It is great experience and lots of fun.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Kavik

[corvus]

Yes, huski, you did misunderstand. It's hard to say without upsetting people. I can have a zillion people say "Well my working line dog settles fine with x y and z." And at the end of the day I can only shrug and say "They aren't Erik, I guess." I can only say what my experience has been, and just because it doesn't align with that of people with WL dogs does not mean I must have been doing something wrong or that my experiences are invalid. I'm comfortable with Erik apparently being weird. It seems typical of him! :laugh:

Lablover and Kavik - private, GSDs, ESSs and a Mal. The dogs do all manner of things. Collecting data at the moment, so I'll be at it for a few weeks if these dogs pull through the training for me.

[Kavik]

Yes, huski, you did misunderstand. It's hard to say without upsetting people. I can have a zillion people say "Well my working line dog settles fine with x y and z." And at the end of the day I can only shrug and say "They aren't Erik, I guess." I can only say what my experience has been, and just because it doesn't align with that of people with WL dogs does not mean I must have been doing something wrong or that my experiences are invalid. I'm comfortable with Erik apparently being weird. It seems typical of him! :laugh:

Lablover and Kavik - private, GSDs, ESSs and a Mal. The dogs do all manner of things. Collecting data at the moment, so I'll be at it for a few weeks if these dogs pull through the training for me.

Sounds like fun :) Give them a pat for me :)

Interestingly the dog of mine that is the easiest to settle is my working line dog, whether that is temperament or because of the training/management I had in place I'm not sure. He knows his crate is down time, very important for training and competition so they don't use up all their energy being excited being out and about on the training/trial grounds all day.

I will get to start the challenge all over again in a few months time when I get a pup :D Can't wait!

Edited January 26, 2013 by Kavik

[Sparassidae]

Interestingly the dog of mine that is the easiest to settle is my working line dog, whether that is temperament or because of the training/management I had in place I'm not sure. He knows his crate is down time, very important for training and competition so they don't use up all their energy being excited being out and about on the training/trial grounds all day.

Could it be because you expected him to be harder, so put more energy effort into teaching him to relax and/or enforcing rules and boundaries? Whether it was a concious effort or not.

[Kavik]

Interestingly the dog of mine that is the easiest to settle is my working line dog, whether that is temperament or because of the training/management I had in place I'm not sure. He knows his crate is down time, very important for training and competition so they don't use up all their energy being excited being out and about on the training/trial grounds all day.

Could it be because you expected him to be harder, so put more energy effort into teaching him to relax and/or enforcing rules and boundaries? Whether it was a concious effort or not.

I think some of it was knowing more than I did with the others, and putting effort into teaching him to relax, but some of it is also temperament, Zoe who is my poundie is more highly strung than Kaos who is working line from a breeder. A dog which cannot relax and continually paces etc is not that useful as a working dog, most dogs are either tethered or kenneled when not working. And most working Kelpie sites I have visited are keen to point out that their dogs are calm, and have a calm working style, so not frenetic.

And Diesel, who is nearly comatose at home he is so low key and low drive, gets super excited if we eg take him to visit the inlaws, to the point where he won't listen or work with me, won't obey commands. I had a hard time with him at those times because he is normally so hard to get excited I can't replicate the excitement when training him in a controlled environment to work through it. He was one of those dogs who would use up all of his energy being excited at being at the venue instead of using his energy in a useful way such as working with me. Not so much of an issue now that he is 9 and slowing down, but when he was younger it was frustrating.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Kavik