Pet Value

[cowanbree]

I would keep looking.

A pet quality dog should have sound temperament with sound conformation. A prospective show pup should have sound temperament with sound and correct conformation without cosmetic faults.

and just what should a breeder do with any that aren't born with perfect conformation??

No such thing as perfect.

A dog that does not have sound conformation should not be sold as a pet at all. It is a 'faulty product' that should not be on the market.

It depends on the fault as to the best course of action for the breeder, some things are 'wait and see'. Then when the pup matures they can be reassessed. Some serious faults mean that sadly the dog must be put to sleep.

Very hard approach comparing a puppy with faulty goods, mine are members of my family. I don't think many breeders have bred 100% sound puppies and having them pts because they are not perfect isn't something I could ever do unless they were in pain. In the end all we can do is the appropriate health testing and the rest is in the lap of the Gods. There is a home for most puppies, even the special ones and it is just a matter of waiting for the right home to come along.

[BlackJaq]

I find the price tag a little high as well, have you made any enquiries into average prices for the breed OP?

[Greytmate]

I would keep looking.

A pet quality dog should have sound temperament with sound conformation. A prospective show pup should have sound temperament with sound and correct conformation without cosmetic faults.

and just what should a breeder do with any that aren't born with perfect conformation??

No such thing as perfect.

A dog that does not have sound conformation should not be sold as a pet at all. It is a 'faulty product' that should not be on the market.

It depends on the fault as to the best course of action for the breeder, some things are 'wait and see'. Then when the pup matures they can be reassessed. Some serious faults mean that sadly the dog must be put to sleep.

Very hard approach comparing a puppy with faulty goods, mine are members of my family. I don't think many breeders have bred 100% sound puppies and having them pts because they are not perfect isn't something I could ever do unless they were in pain. In the end all we can do is the appropriate health testing and the rest is in the lap of the Gods. There is a home for most puppies, even the special ones and it is just a matter of waiting for the right home to come along.

It isn't a hard approach, it is how the consumer laws work. A pet buyer is entitled to buy a sound, healthy puppy free of obvious and serious faults. This puppy has faults, and those faults may lead to problems.

Nobody is suggesting that puppies should be put to sleep if not perfect. I said there is no such thing as perfect.

I'm not sure if you missed my explanation of sound conformation.

By sound conformation, I mean one that is healthy enough so that the dog can live at least ten years (hopefully longer) pain free. A dog that is slightly over-sized or undersized, or who has a boof head, can still be sound enough to be pet quality.

There are plenty of breeders around who breed litters of sound, healthy pups, even if they are not all show quality.

A breeder can do a lot more than appropriate health testing, blaming the gods when things go wrong, and letting a pet owner take all the risk. You may have missed my suggested solution.

this breeder could hold on to and work with the timid puppy in the hope it will improve to the extent it can make somebody a good pet and have a happy life. At the same time the breeder could keep an eye on the pup's mouth, and if it doesn't start to improve they might be able to have some corrective surgery done to solve the problem. If the problems are fixed or resolve themselves over time, then the dog can be sold.

It just isn't fair on a new dog owner (let alone one that has paid $2K) to fall in love with a new pet puppy where there is an obvious risk that it may be prone to severe health or behaviour problems in future. This risk needs to be borne by the breeder, and can be minimised with good breeding practices.

I think that breeders should run on dogs with these sorts of faults and sort them out first, instead of selling them as pets to people who feel sorry for them. A bad mouth can sometimes turn into a serious problem. Pet buyers deserve sound, healthy dogs with good temperaments, and pet quality should never be used as a label for a dog with serious faults.

[cowanbree]

I think that breeders should run on dogs with these sorts of faults and sort them out first, instead of selling them as pets to people who feel sorry for them. A bad mouth can sometimes turn into a serious problem. Pet buyers deserve sound, healthy dogs with good temperaments, and pet quality should never be used as a label for a dog with serious faults.

I think we will have to agree to disagree. As long as there is full disclosure and breeder support I don't have an issue with them being placed. You can't keep them all or you wouldn't be breeding long.

I personally have a pet dog, purchased at full pet price with full disclosure prior to purchase of a reasonably serious eye issue that may or may not require major surgery. I made a conscious decision that while that dog may not be perfect she would fit into my life and if she requires surgery the breeder will pay for the surgery. As long as it is the right home and there has been full disclosure I don't have an issue

[WDO]

Im not going to name the breed as it has limited breeders.. Whilst i may not be purchasing this pup, i dont want our name scratched from all of the breeders list as some people have already indicated that 'we' would apparently not be a good owner.

pet quality prices are $1500 +

show from 2k and a lot higher..

This pup is $1500.. The original $2000 was just a figure as to not incriminate a breeder.

We will wait for another pup..

[julesluvscavs]

Thats fair enough WDO :)

All the best with whatever puppy you end up getting and Im sure you will make wonderful owners when he/she comes along !

Ps Its worth the long wait for the right one !

Edited January 25, 2013 by Jules❤3Cavs

[alpha bet]

WDO firstly, I congratulate you on your discretion.... it is very easy online for people to misinterpret questions. It has happened before.... many times..... and the last thing anyone on here should do is to risk the reputation of a breeder or dog business (or any individual for that manner) without having all the facts....

Breeders are usually more than happy to discuss how they calculate their pricing.....and there is no problem asking..... after all it is a long term decision and the buyer is entitled to decide if they are being treated fairly.

On price - years ago (and I mean many....) I purchased my first registered dog, a GSD puppy, including hip and breed surveyed parents. It did seem expensive at the time and my mum was a bit horrified that I was prepared to spend two weeks wages (I was only 19yo so not on a very high wage), but this breeder explained that she placed a value on her dogs that she felt was high enough to make people stop and really think is this what they really want?, but not too much that it would put the dog out of the price range of the average family. All her pups were sold for the same price and mine and two others were shown in all breed and speciality with her assistance.

She believed that charging one weeks wage of the average Australian family income was a fair price..... I have followed this example for all my litters and it has always seemed fair over the years. Therefore the current national average wage is $69,165 (excluding overtime/bonuses). This means I sell my pups currently for $1,300 - It is a good way to have a system to decide what is fair and reasonable.

I can also understand that if a breeder has a pup that they believe has show or breeding potential they might be inclined to charge extra for an outright sale or place on a breeders terms with a contract for future breed worth. But is it fair to charge more than 40% extra for a dog who (in the breeders opinion) is of show quality.....???? Personally I feel this only devalues the breeders belief in the other puppies.

Pups with minor defects are expected in every litter and generally this will not affect the health and welfare of the pup in a family for the long term, however if pups have severe defects that do cause health trouble then the breeder has to consider the long term options available. If the pup is emotionally unreliable then I would run a puppy on until it is sorted or if proved to be unstable I would PTS. I have no wish to burden any family with a problem of this nature.

Edited February 9, 2013 by alpha bet

[Topoftheheap]

alpha bet - that is a fantastic way of pricing your pups...... very fair....

[Maddy]

I think I'd be a bit put out by a breeder offering a pup at a 'discount' for any reason at all. But to be honest, money doesn't and wouldn't come into the equation for me, when buying a pup, older dog or any dog, regardless of from rescue or a breeder. That's not to say I'd pay $10,000 or something, but I think I'd be rubbed the wrong way by someone selling one pup for a bit less because of any kind of imperfection.

That said, I wouldn't buy a pup that I had concerns about, in terms of temperament etc, at that young age. It wouldn't be anything to do with money, but that if I were going to buy a purebred (any) pup I'd want to be 100% sure about it.

I basically agree with Alkhe but as a breeder I would also be worried about your attitude wanting a discount for a preceived fault. Sorry but I would be wondering what else you would want down the track if things didn't turn out how you think they should.

Same amount of effort and money is put into "pet" puppies as show potential ones by most breeders.

I'm not a breeder but I'd still be worried by that attitude- it's a dog, not a fridge or a washing machine.

If the OP had concerns about the pup's timidity, that'd be fine (and very understandable) but it sounds more like the timidity itself doesn't bother them, more that they should get a discount on the "faulty goods". If I were a breeder, there's not a chance in hell I'd sell a puppy to someone who saw them as objects like that.