Judges Refusing A Challenge...

[rajacadoo]

Just wondering if judges who refuse a Challenge, has the 'right' to not tell you the reason for refusing the Challenge???

[Alyosha]

I don't think they are any obligation to explain. Not 100% on that but I think I've seen judges refuse to enter into discussion. Most times I've seen a non award there is some exchange, and normally far less bad feeling afterwards.

[-Megz-]

There is no obligation to explain but I think a judge should be able to articulate their reasons if asked. This is what they need to do all through judges training so I hope that art isn't lost over the years.

[Jbea]

If they deemed the dog or dogs good enough to give them first in their classes, then why do they not award a challenge? Surely if they were not up to standard then why give them a class?

[-Megz-]

If they deemed the dog or dogs good enough to give them first in their classes, then why do they not award a challenge? Surely if they were not up to standard then why give them a class?

Challenge and a class are two different things. They may be a quite young dog, first place in the puppy class is very reasonable. The judge may consider them too immature to be willing to award the challenge. There are lots of different scenarios that make a no challenge with a class placing very plausible.

[Sandra777]

1st in class means the dog was the best on in it's class. Doesn't mean it's actually a good dog.

Awarding a CC requires the judge to sign a certificate which states the judge is clearly of the opinion that the dog is of such merit as to qualify for the title of champion (or words to that effect).... two very different scenarios

[Elise+Hudson]

Too immature to award a challenge? If the judge believes the dog not to fit the standard enough to be awarded the challenge, that is it.

I find it hard to see how immaturity does not fit the standard?

I doubt this happens all that commonly, more likely with a young dog you get placed down the line in the challenge. But to be non awarded for immaturity?

[-Megz-]

Too immature to award a challenge? If the judge believes the dog not to fit the standard enough to be awarded the challenge, that is it.

I find it hard to see how immaturity does not fit the standard?

I doubt this happens all that commonly, more likely with a young dog you get placed down the line in the challenge. But to be non awarded for immaturity?

I think you may have misunderstood.

To place a dog in a puppy class first and to think that it is worthy of a title are two different things. There are some dogs that do not look "the part" until they are much older. An Afghan comes to mind, a young Afghan that just turned 6 months is a vastly different dog to a fully coated adult. This doesn't mean it's any less worthy of it's first place in Minor Puppy, but if it were the only specimen in the breed the judge might no challenge. The same dog might even get it's class in group if it's the best minor.

I didn't mention non-awarding due to immaturity, just withholding the challenge.

[Elise+Hudson]

Sorry I was under the impression withholding the challenge and non-awarding were essentially the same thing.

I know a young afghan can look very different in coat to an adult dog, but if it's structure is correct and it moves correctly then surely the judge will be able to understand the difference in coat? I just don't understand withholding challenges for young/immature dogs which are otherwise a good fit to the standard?

I have never been non-awarded/withheld the challenge, but I have had a judge tell me after giving my dog a runner up that he would have got the breed if he was a bit more mature, and that in his/her opinion was the better dog. I just find that extremely frustrating? But I am getting off topic! :)

[-Megz-]

Absolutely the judge knows that age is the factor in the coat but a judge should be judging what is in front of them. The judge cannot predict, what comes next. What if that puppy coat comes out and the coat that replaces it is incorrect? (I have no clue if this is possible but hypothetically).

I think I took this off topic, sorry...

[Jbea]

Maybe, but it is an interesting topic! I witnessed this recently, when three bitches went in for CHallenge and the challenge was not awarded! The judge did talk to the three competitors as a group, but in all fairness the three involved are all constant winners at a high level, two of them even at Class group level consistently. So what would the story be here? The three I think, came from puppy, open, and oz, so surely one of them could have been good enough.

[Sandra777]

Maybe, but it is an interesting topic! I witnessed this recently, when three bitches went in for CHallenge and the challenge was not awarded! The judge did talk to the three competitors as a group, but in all fairness the three involved are all constant winners at a high level, two of them even at Class group level consistently. So what would the story be here? The three I think, came from puppy, open, and oz, so surely one of them could have been good enough.

If the judge was not CLEARLY of the OPINION that any of them were of sufficient merit to qualify as a champion then it was their duty/right/job to refuse the challenge. Multiple other judges could have a different opinion, but this specific judge does not share that opinion.

I think you need to get your head around the fact that there could be 50 entered and that particular judge's OPINION could still be that none are worthy of being a champion. I have seen a dog win BIS and if I was the judge and it was up for the CC it would be withheld because in my OPINION it is not worthy of being a champion.

[blitz3]

i've seen a cc withheld once and it was because there was only 1 of the breed entered and it was a very young dog

[ellz]

If the judge was not CLEARLY of the OPINION that any of them were of sufficient merit to qualify as a champion then it was their duty/right/job to refuse the challenge. Multiple other judges could have a different opinion, but this specific judge does not share that opinion.

I think you need to get your head around the fact that there could be 50 entered and that particular judge's OPINION could still be that none are worthy of being a champion. I have seen a dog win BIS and if I was the judge and it was up for the CC it would be withheld because in my OPINION it is not worthy of being a champion.

Personally I wish that more judges had the courage to withhold CCs.

[Alyosha]

It's not only coat that changes with maturity. A young dog goes through many changes, includnig structural ones. If a breeder is knowledgeable about the bloodlines and how they grow etc, they may be making an informed guess as to how the dog will eventually look. A judge doesn't usually have that knowledge.

The last time I saw a judge withholding challenges it was a European judge, and he was explaining just that. So he would say something to an exhibitor like "Lovely, and first in class, but too young for challenge." And people were happy, they could see what he was doing.

In many breeds youngsters are not just smaller versions of adults. They can have front and back ends grow at different rates, chests that haven't dropped, looseness in movement etc - a whole range of things going on. They may still be great pups, and show lots of potential. But their worthiness of the title of Champion may be hard to evaluate until they get a bit more complete.

[ellz]

My mentor once said to me..."when judging you don't have the benefit of bloodline knowledge, pedigrees or a crystal ball. A promising, typical puppy is exactly that ON THE DAY, whilst a mature dud, will ALWAYS be a dud...".

[Meea]

i've seen a cc withheld once and it was because there was only 1 of the breed entered and it was a very young dog

Neither reason would be WHY.

One dog may or may not reach the standard in that judges opinion. Likewise a youngster.

The competitin is to meet breed stsndard not beat other dogs.

[Jbea]

Sandra777 no need to yell! I actually agree here! But I do find this interesting to discuss, but please don't yell and shake your finger at me, while telling me to get my head around it! I was only referring to what I had seen, not what I actually think! Sheeze now let's continue with the discussion.... :)

[Austerra]

I have had my bitch placed first over others in bitch lineup but then refused challenge, with reason that "not quite what she is looking for", to me that more indicates personal taste rather than worthiness of championship points.

Also had refused challenge for my boy stating "not enough maturity", he was only a minor at the time. Been under this judge again as a mature dog and she really liked him.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Austerra

[dogone]

Maybe, but it is an interesting topic! I witnessed this recently, when three bitches went in for CHallenge and the challenge was not awarded! The judge did talk to the three competitors as a group, but in all fairness the three involved are all constant winners at a high level, two of them even at Class group level consistently. So what would the story be here? The three I think, came from puppy, open, and oz, so surely one of them could have been good enough.

When we enter a show we are asking for the judges opinion on that day. The judge has to sign a challenge/BOB certificate that says " I am clearly of the opinion that this exhibit is of such outstanding merit as to be worthy to qualify for the title "Champion". So the judge on that day must have thought, in their opinion,that on the day the three bitches were not worthy of gaining points to become a Champion. The important thing here is though 'on the day'. If the judge spoke to the exhibitors, then they would know what the judges reasoning was, which is good, because I have seen some judges non award challenges without any reason given to the exhibitors.

You say that two of these bitches have won consistently at Class group level, but that is competing against their own age group, no points given for a title and the judge is not signing a certifcate. But just because other judges have awarded them before, doesn't mean the next judge will, it is their opinion on the day that we pay for, thats the nature of dog showing :)