Mystiqview Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) Today I was talking to a colleague from work who has about a 10 month lilac border collie bought from a registered breeder in Victoria. It has a serious heart murmur that was missed at 6 weeks, possibly again at 12 weeks. It has now had to have surgery to correct this defect. Once they opened her up, the pup bled out and had to be closed up and is now "skating on thin ice". If she survives the next two weeks they will try again to correct it. The breeder has claimed there was nothing there at 6 weeks and has offered no support.. I know faint murmurs can be missed until when the dog is older.. but if it is that bad that they now have to look at open surgery....surely someone would SHOULD have picked it up much earlier??? Please give thoughts and prayers to this little girl.. Poor people they paid over $1200 for her and now another $3000 in treatment. Edited January 18, 2013 by Mystiqview Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dogsfevr Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I gather they didn't get a puppy check when the pup arrived ?? But i would certainly be asking questioning what happened during the second vacc (providing they had it ) as to whay it wasn't picked up then. Generally some vets diagnose murmurs when there not there but to miss one this bad then i would be pissed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 Most people would think the 6 week vet check would have picked up something like that and would not think of doing the next until 12 weeks when it is due the next vaccination. Not only that, as the girl at work said...... "thought we would get our next dog from an ethical breeder". Their last one had issues and was a pound puppy. I certainly do not blame them for being slightly peeved Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 My toy poodle Coco had her heart murmur missed at 6 week check & 12 week check. It wasn't found until she was 6 months and I took her in to get her desexed where they advised me she had a murmur & didn't recommend desexing until I got it checked out. 2 separate vets missed it, apparently being a continuos murmur made it difficult to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesluvscavs Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 (edited) Some heart murmurs are very hard to be picked up by vets. Renae has a very mild one and unless I've pointed it out, most vets have not ever felt it ! (Shes 10) Our Cavalier club has a heart specialist come over from interstate once a year to check people's Cavs hearts properly. I believe there are a few different types and some are very hard to hear in the early stages ps sorry to hear about your Colleague's puppy's heart Edited January 18, 2013 by Jules♥Cavs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 I would have thought one serious enough to go in for surgery at 9-10 months old would not be minor. It's not something common in my breed as compared to others. Or many just go undetected. I know some can be hard to hear. Mum and I both have them and it can only be picked up by an ECG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julesluvscavs Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Yeah I would have thought it should have been picked up well before then if it was that serious Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
❤LovesPoodles❤ Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Coco had to have surgery to fix the defect & as I said wasn't picked up until she was 6 months & they graded it as a 5-6 murmur. 2 vets in different states missed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kayla1 Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 Just wondering, because the grade of the murmur is not always related to how severe the underlying condition is, whether it's possible that despite there being a serious heart condition, the murmur at the time it was checked was actually low grade and hence why it wasn't picked up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 I would have thought one serious enough to go in for surgery at 9-10 months old would not be minor. It's not something common in my breed as compared to others. Or many just go undetected. I know some can be hard to hear. Mum and I both have them and it can only be picked up by an ECG. It would be nice if the world made sense and A followed B but it doesn't always work like that. Some low grade murmurs are caused by serious defects, other higher grade murmurs may be innocent. It is possible that there was a slight murmur- so slight that a general practitioner may not have picked up up if the puppy squirmed or was excited. If there was no history in the lines, and the breeder did get the pups vet checked I am not sure what else they could do? At some point there is a 'shit happens' element that breeders cant control no matter how ethical and careful they are. Breeders also have to accept the word of the professional looking at the puppies and if they are told it was normal and healthy at 6 weeks then they have sold the pup in good faith that is healthy. I hope this puppy pulls through!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 18, 2013 Author Share Posted January 18, 2013 Thanks for the replies. It is not something I am familiar with and experienced in my animals and it is not something commonly talked about within the breed. The pedigree is certainly interesting and there are some dogs that do raise the eye brows on other issues. It was more a question to those who have heart issues in their breed. I hope for the pups owners they are not left heartbroken and it makes a full recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 It depends on what the defect actually is and how bad it is. The more common PDA tends to produce a definite murmur because blood is rushing through a hole that shouldn't be there but other defects have blood circulating wrongly and if the defect is big enough the rushing sound is not heard. Most of these are inoperable as is very bad PDA so I would be curious to know the actual diagnosis for this dog because heart conditions apart from PDA (which is reasonably common in all dogs) are very rare in Borders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted January 18, 2013 Share Posted January 18, 2013 When I took Amber in with all the fluid the vet said then that she had a heart murmur which was when we did the ultrasound and he noticed the liver as he was doing the heart. I was a little bit surprised at the time as nothing about her heart had been said previously. The specialist then said that there was nothing wrong with the heart. So sometimes vets can get the heart stuff wrong. Are the breeders at least offering support? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 Jules P. As far as I am aware from talking to them on Friday afternoon - No they are not. I will find out more when I see them next. They asked me what I knew anything of a problem in the line and heart murmurs in general in BCs. I told them I would see what I could find out about heart murmurs in BCs as I did not think it was a up there breed problem. After having health problems with their last rescue adopted dog (don't know the details), they thought this time they would go with a "respected" registered breeder. And are a bit overcome by it all right now with the dog may or may not pulling through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 (edited) Jules P. As far as I am aware from talking to them on Friday afternoon - No they are not. I will find out more when I see them next. They asked me what I knew anything of a problem in the line and heart murmurs in general in BCs. I told them I would see what I could find out about heart murmurs in BCs as I did not think it was a up there breed problem. After having health problems with their last rescue adopted dog (don't know the details), they thought this time they would go with a "respected" registered breeder. And are a bit overcome by it all right now with the dog may or may not pulling through. The only heart defects I have heard of over the years in Borders are PDA which you find in all breeds and just two cases of tricuspid valve dysphasia, which the cardio specialists have stated is extremely rare in the breed and can be caused by a virus in the pregnant dam. PDA can sometimes be fixed with surgery but TVD cannot. So I would be very interested to know exactly what condition they diagnosed before surgery. Also keep in mind that most puppies with a heart murmur are pts early by the breeder or kept going as long as they can lead a happy life, without a proper diagnosis as the testing is so incredibly expensive and most cannot be fixed anyway. I have heard of heart murmur puppies over the years but they are usually first detected at 6 weeks. Heart problems in older puppies and mature dogs, except for the real oldies, is virtually unheard of. BTW, I am wondering which "respected" breeder they got a lilac from? I know it is possible but would be very unusual. Edited January 20, 2013 by dancinbcs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 Yes, when I heard Lilac... I inwardly groaned. But thank you for the info. Will pass it on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 BTW, I am wondering which "respected" breeder they got a lilac from? I know it is possible but would be very unusual. No more genetically unusual then blue :) There are some top performing agility dogs around here that always seem to throw lilac. They are breeding for performance but often get the lilac color. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mystiqview Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 I know. Not from a sporting kennel. Just colour Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dancinbcs Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 BTW, I am wondering which "respected" breeder they got a lilac from? I know it is possible but would be very unusual. No more genetically unusual then blue :) There are some top performing agility dogs around here that always seem to throw lilac. They are breeding for performance but often get the lilac color. Actually lilac is very rare from respected breeders because very few have any choc in their lines. I can only think of one well respected performance kennel and while they have choc they do not have blue. So from respected breeders it is quite rare. From those just breeding for colour and doing a bit of agility it is increasingly common but these are not what I call "respected" breeders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulesP Posted January 20, 2013 Share Posted January 20, 2013 Actually lilac is very rare from respected breeders because very few have any choc in their lines. I can only think of one well respected performance kennel and while they have choc they do not have blue. So from respected breeders it is quite rare. From those just breeding for colour and doing a bit of agility it is increasingly common but these are not what I call "respected" breeders. You aren't in Victoria though are you? Therefore I doubt you would know all our breeders. The person I am thinking of does not do 'a bit of agility'. Not really sure what having blue has to do with it either. This breeder has no blue dogs. Their dogs obviously have the dilute gene though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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