DogsAndTheMob Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Do you think the circling is misdirected working instinct... i.e. trying to work other dogs, people or horses? One of my BCs will circle the other dogs if he doesn't get enough sheep-work. If Serenity "switched on to" dogs first, that might explain her lack of interest in livestock, particularly if she is distracted by the sight or sound of other dogs. In any case, it might be worth considering setting up a visual barrier between Serenity and the other dogs when she is separated from them... Also, be wary of having her in a run with a fence adjoining the area where your other dogs are housed, as that can precipitate fence-running. What does she do if she's housed in a quiet area with minimal stimuli? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumabaar Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Do you think the circling is misdirected working instinct... i.e. trying to work other dogs, people or horses? One of my BCs will circle the other dogs if he doesn't get enough sheep-work. If Serenity "switched on to" dogs first, that might explain her lack of interest in livestock, particularly if she is distracted by the sight or sound of other dogs. In any case, it might be worth considering setting up a visual barrier between Serenity and the other dogs when she is separated from them... Also, be wary of having her in a run with a fence adjoining the area where your other dogs are housed, as that can precipitate fence-running. What does she do if she's housed in a quiet area with minimal stimuli? Circling can be a Displacement behaviour- a behaviour that has a normal function but has become a coping mechanism for the dog and is performed excessively and in the incorrect situation. This doesnt mean that this dog is displaying actual herding instinct or is trying to work when the behaviour is performed, it may be but in this case it doesnt sound like it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 Do you think the circling is misdirected working instinct... i.e. trying to work other dogs, people or horses? One of my BCs will circle the other dogs if he doesn't get enough sheep-work. If Serenity "switched on to" dogs first, that might explain her lack of interest in livestock, particularly if she is distracted by the sight or sound of other dogs. In any case, it might be worth considering setting up a visual barrier between Serenity and the other dogs when she is separated from them... Also, be wary of having her in a run with a fence adjoining the area where your other dogs are housed, as that can precipitate fence-running. What does she do if she's housed in a quiet area with minimal stimuli? When she was working stock, she was on her own to do it. The yard she is in has tree lines, a horse yard and stable then her run so she can't see the others. She was fence running even with the others in the same yard as her so she's locked up in a run atm and let out twice daily for decent runs. I hate locking her up but for the short term its helping until I can work something out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fainty_girl Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) Sounds like a very tough situation for you all . I have an active Kelpie X (Tilly) and my brother has a very active Kelpie (Rusty) and he is a very vocal dog and will bark when he's bored. If Rusty doesn't get enough daily exercise, then it really shows in his behaviour, particularly with barking. He would play 24/7 if he had the chance, so since Rusty moved in here the dog's growing collection of toys have had to be put away in the cupboard. He's a stubborn dog and will really push you to get what he wants...eg. if he wants to go into a certain room or wants to roam, he will go and push at the door and bark (used to do this more often), so without saying a word to him I would walk over and gently lead him away from the door by gently holding his collar for a couple of seconds (not something you would do with every dog if they are reactive, etc). He'll usually come back a few times and I just repeat the same thing and lead him away from the door and then he will normally give up and go and lie down and relax. Does your dog like swimming? Does that tire her out? My dogs really love swimming and it is one thing that really drains their energy. Also, is she left home alone a lot if you're working long hours? I wonder how she would behave in a different environment, living without other dogs? Edited January 15, 2013 by fainty_girl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DogsAndTheMob Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 It sounds as if you are doing everything possible to manage an intractable problem! Take care of yourself... This must be incredibly stressful, particularly combined with your long working week. Best wishes for a good solution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Circling can be a Displacement behaviour- a behaviour that has a normal function but has become a coping mechanism for the dog and is performed excessively and in the incorrect situation. This doesnt mean that this dog is displaying actual herding instinct or is trying to work when the behaviour is performed, it may be but in this case it doesnt sound like it. Or a stereotypy. Lots of animals pace or circle compulsively. It's a major problem in captive wild animals and is thought to be related to what they would normally do in the wild. An animal that usually spends a large portion of the day traveling is likely to develop a pacing or circling stereotypy in captivity. It is a pointless behaviour in that there is no obvious purpose for it. Stereotypies are an interesting problem. Their occurrence is usually in response to chronic stress, but they often become self-soothing, so if you stop an animal from performing them their stress may increase unless you can teach them an alternative coping behaviour. When Erik was about 5 months old he went through this phase where for a few hours a day he would be so wired he looked like he was on amphetamines. It was insane. I remember having him on my lap darting glances in every direction. He couldn't stay still for more than about 5 seconds and would race off and start roaming around the place and barking. I had never seen anything like it before. I started using massage and quiet time on a mat with a pig's ear or Kong to help him settle down. It made a huge difference and that was the last we saw of the crazy eyes, but getting him to settle reliably has been an ongoing project for the last couple of years. I have tried massage, thundershirt, down-stays, reinforcing one volley of alert barking and then return to bed, frozen Kongs and rec bones, Karen Overall's Relaxation Protocol, confinement, more exercise, and food dispensing toys like a Buster Cube or Kong Wobbler. A lot of things have helped and he is a much nicer dog to live with now, but there's a limit to what he can do. If he gets bored he gets bored and it can be very hard to settle him. He is not destructive, but pokes everything and if he's really bored and frustrated he will stand around and bark as well. There is nothing I have ever found that can halt this short of giving him a Kong Wobbler or something. He just has to be left to get it out of his system. With a dog that has been like Erik was all day every day for many years you certainly have your work cut out for you. I would start the Relaxation Protocol. I would be astonished if she found it easy. I did Day 1 with Erik 5 days in a row before he was able to get through the whole thing without getting up and circling and barking, and that was not even when he was at his worst. Starting the RP should give you some indication of whether she can learn to settle. It may be that she can't. In which case you should bite the bullet and see Kersti Seksal. She might be a little more effective at finding the right medication than Robert Stabler has been. She has also had heaps of tuition with Karen Overall's protocols and will be able to guide you to get your dog through it. You can't just do half a day's exercises or something. It's designed to gradually increase in difficulty and then decrease again and you really need to follow that structure. Did Stabler give you a report? Did he make a diagnosis? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
corvus Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 Here is Overall's Relaxation Protocol: http://www.dogdaysnw.com/doc/OverallRelaxationProtocol.pdf Incidentally, giving Erik sufficient physical exercise is pretty important. His mental activity is the biggest problem, but if he doesn't get enough physical activity it's like shooting ourselves in the foot. Nothing works as well as it usually does and he gradually gets more and more difficult. He is a short dog so it's much easier to make him physically tired than an athletic kelpie, but we don't wear him out. We just take enough of the edge off that he's not driving us nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted January 15, 2013 Author Share Posted January 15, 2013 Sounds like a very tough situation for you all . I have an active Kelpie X (Tilly) and my brother has a very active Kelpie (Rusty) and he is a very vocal dog and will bark when he's bored. If Rusty doesn't get enough daily exercise, then it really shows in his behaviour, particularly with barking. He would play 24/7 if he had the chance, so since Rusty moved in here the dog's growing collection of toys have had to be put away in the cupboard. He's a stubborn dog and will really push you to get what he wants...eg. if he wants to go into a certain room or wants to roam, he will go and push at the door and bark (used to do this more often), so without saying a word to him I would walk over and gently lead him away from the door by gently holding his collar for a couple of seconds (not something you would do with every dog if they are reactive, etc). He'll usually come back a few times and I just repeat the same thing and lead him away from the door and then he will normally give up and go and lie down and relax. Does your dog like swimming? Does that tire her out? My dogs really love swimming and it is one thing that really drains their energy. Also, is she left home alone a lot if you're working long hours? I wonder how she would behave in a different environment, living without other dogs? She hates swimming, we've tried swimming her in our dam and she wouldn't do it. She is currently left home a lot, but even before when I wasn't working she was just as bad. Even taking her into the house will us she continually fidgets and drives us insane. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted January 20, 2013 Author Share Posted January 20, 2013 Just a quick update - Serenity has stopped barking since being isolated from the others, now she is sulking and hardly eating Driving me up the wall! She's still very hyper (as to be expected) but at least has solved the fighting issue! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 Just a quick update on Nutterbrain. I've put her into our dog run and she gets two solid runs a day with my mothers dog. She's stopped barking for the most part, but its only a short term solution Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 Can I ask why it is only a short term solution? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 I can't fathom keeping her locked in a run for 22 hours a day. I can't let her have a big yard as she destroys my fencing. I feel cruel having her locked up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
megan_ Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 okay - I didn't know those were the hours. What is she like in the house? Could she be in the run while you're at work, outdoors for specific activities and then in the house (on her mat etc), with activity balls etc to keep her mind occupied too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Everythings Shiny Posted February 5, 2013 Author Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) okay - I didn't know those were the hours. What is she like in the house? Could she be in the run while you're at work, outdoors for specific activities and then in the house (on her mat etc), with activity balls etc to keep her mind occupied too? No, she will destroy the house, she wont sit on a mat, she's too hyper for that. ETA - she isn't toy orientated at all, not even the slightest interest. She can't be inside as my mothers dog is disabled and she pushes him over Edited February 5, 2013 by Everythings Shiny Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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