Advice Wanted Re: Problem Dog

[zeebie]

Parvo titre test would give answer to that question, even if vaccinated there is a difference in the level between a dog who is just vaccinated as opposed one who has actually suffered the infection. There are also other infections which could have caused neurological problems as well as something as simple as a beating as a young dog causing acquired brain injury.

The dog could also have hearing and vision problems which would also make her more likely to bark as she is missing out on vital sensory input so is always in "high alert" mode.

Have you thought about giving her a pup (young dog) as company and for her to bond with? This would have to be very carefully done though.

Another way of treating is using hormone therapy.

Good luck

Edited January 11, 2013 by zeebie

[persephone]

Have you thought about giving her a pup (young dog) as company and for her to bond with?

I think it's a multi dog household now, zeebie ....

[Everythings Shiny]

Have you thought about giving her a pup (young dog) as company and for her to bond with?

I think it's a multi dog household now, zeebie ....

I wouldn't add another dog to the household now. Mums oldest dog has health issues, my oldest girl is arthritic and to be honest, I couldn't afford another dog right now. There's currently 5 dogs on the property here (we are a hobby farm) and I don't think I could go through puppy stage right now as I'm working full time and about to start a uni course at the end of the month.

I'll ask for a parvo titre test to be done as soon as I get some bills paid off, her hearing and eye sight appear to be fantastic.

I think her barking is an attention seeking thing (I could be totally wrong though) as when the other dogs play with her, the barking does reduce (not completely thought) so I'm not sure.

This morning I let her out of her run (I'm keeping her seperate for now) and she raced around like a looney and started barking at everything, the horses, the geese, the car (parked in the yard), me making horse feeds and cattle feeds up etc. I left her bark collar on and it reduced it, but she still gave it a good crack (She'd get two barks out and it would beep, then she would stop)

[Sheilaheel02]

Hi ES,

I hope you find a resolution for Serenity-Jane.

Just another recommendation for Steve @K9 Pro from me. I recently took Lena to see Steve and I was impressed, money well spent. I still have a long road ahead with the 'Lenatic', but we are making progress.

Regarding the quivering and chattering, I recall running Mick in two Agility classes in quick succession at the Canberra Royal one year and as we exited the jumping ring the crowd parted like Moses had appeared! Mick's sides were heaving and quivering and his teeth were chattering in between him growling and reefing his tug reward. Mick was on adrenaline overload. A little boy was nearby with his little sister, Mum and Grandpa following on behind. They had obviously just watched us run. To his Mum's horror (and my embarassment), the little boy yelled "Look at him, look at him, look at the Mongrel Mummy, what's wrong with him?". His Mum sushed him and hurriedly moved along, but as Grandpa walked passed he smiled at me and said "Awesome Dog!"

S

[dancinbcs]

A word of warning to anyone else who finds themselves with a young dog like this, usually a BC or a Kelpie. A usual give away to the temperament is that they run circles constantly in the yard and do not interact much with the owner like a normal devoted dog would do. If you are not a very physically active trainer with loads of time daily to train and pursue really serious agility then the dog will be pretty useless for any other purpose in a home environment. These are the dogs that should be tested for detection work as young as possible rather than you trying to fix them for a number of years first. Detection working dogs are usually hyper, high drive dogs that can work at least 8 hour shifts and keep going without slowing down, day in day out. The dogs are trained with scented dummies that are used in a tug game with the dog getting swung round during training. It takes very fit and active trainers to cope with these dogs and most of these dogs thrive on it.

Some friends spent 12 months raising a BC like this with tons of show and obedience training and still could not get the dog to be interested in them at all. He would continue running endless circles in the yard even if they were out there with him and he showed no sign of being pleased to see them when they picked him up after a few days at kennels. They were astounded then when the trainer from Corrective Services spent a couple of hours putting the dog through his paces and at how the dog really related to him and the much more physically challenging work. Off he went with the CS trainer, without a backwards glance and went on to be a very successful drug detection dog in prisons for the next decade before retiring with his handler. Nothing the original owners could have offered that dog, would have made him happy. The same owners have since raised 5 more BCs with no problems at all but that one dog was just the wrong dog in the wrong home.

[mochi]

Dancinbcs, that is fascinating. Do these types of kelpies and BCs have a name? Or how do you refer to them? It is nice to hear they do have a calling in life!

ES, i commend you for working so hard with your girl. I have only ever had lazy blob dogs.

[dancinbcs]

Dancinbcs, that is fascinating. Do these types of kelpies and BCs have a name? Or how do you refer to them? It is nice to hear they do have a calling in life!

ES, i commend you for working so hard with your girl. I have only ever had lazy blob dogs.

No they don't really have a name, apart from being referred to as dogs without an off switch and are not very common but start out as very active puppies that never seem to rest much like a normal puppy. The normal ones go flat out until they fall down asleep then get up to go again. These are not breeds that sit around looking cute, they have to be doing "something" as babies. As the months go by though you realise that they are not responding like a normal dog in a breed that should be very people orientated and they have little interest in interacting with you. The obsessive need to run and keep running is a key factor too. This can be re-directed into constant work in the right job. They can be trained in all the usual obedience stuff but never seem to want to relax and just get attention.

I have had laid back, middle of the road and a couple of hyper Borders and now have a hyper Jap Spitz but they all responded to physical affection, could be taught to concentrate for periods of time and settled with maturity but the ones with no off switch and an obsessive need to work all the time, never do and make the owners feel like they have done something wrong.

[mita]

Re the comparisons with children with ADHD. Children with the 'true' condition of ADHD actually respond with calmer behaviour after been given stimulant meds (paradoxical effect). Give same stimulant meds to a person without ADHD, & their behaviour would be revved up (regular effect).

I wondered if there was any such distinction with dogs... & did a search. I found an article on Pet Place which says there is, too.

Scroll down to bottom where it's said giving stimulant meds to a 'hyperactive' dog in a controlled clinical setting, does distinguish dogs who have a hyperactivity condition. Their heart rate, respiratory function & behaviour is reduced.

http://www.petplace.com/dogs/hyperactivity-in-dogs/page1.aspx

Now I'm not saying, rush out & get stimulant meds for the kelpie. This article doesn't mention actual research data. There'd need to be professional veterinary input about this.

ADDED: Searched further & found a research-based article which looks at use of such stimulant meds with hyperactive dogs. Study finding was that they did reduce hyperactive behaviour:

So, if the kelpie in the OP were mine, I'd be discussing with my vet the question of this approach to both diagnosis & treatment as one possibility. (The Pet Place article also looks at other reasons for over-activity).

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:pFd-lcUun7YJ:www.skidmore.edu/~hfoley/Handouts/Dog.Proposal.pdf+Research+use+of+stimulants+with+hyperactive+dogs&hl=en&gl=au&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESjZTWirMiqks7bwTYDiFDId5WV62xhjNnTd5mYeNi3pkl5gBPZn95nJoyRh4Ka00GkTsyGpKaRYI49UG8TPrBRzpRWlIqLFI6nFkELW0E27dRpm7bMPis65nU-xIZrWkA0J7VKa&sig=AHIEtbT1TeiYpieNN99FjR1vr9VAmLHbKA

Edited January 12, 2013 by mita

[Alyosha]

Further to the "Behave Paste" - I was going to suggest you could try her on a course of B vitamins. Not expensive at all so little to lose.

I'd try a B complex, and a B12 as well.

We had a rescue Belgian shep (groen) who was a shocking circler, but we knew it was learned behaviour from his past environment. We didn't have him for long, he was snake bitten. But I later thought I wished I had tried it with him. It was heartbreaking and frustrating to watch him go until he was exhausted, then try to continue.

[Katdogs]

Dancinbcs, that is fascinating. Do these types of kelpies and BCs have a name? Or how do you refer to them? It is nice to hear they do have a calling in life!

ES, i commend you for working so hard with your girl. I have only ever had lazy blob dogs.

Sadly, most of these dogs would end up being called 'unrehomable poundies'. It's brilliant when they do find the right job though!

Good on you ES for persevering.

[Everythings Shiny]

Dancinbcs, that is fascinating. Do these types of kelpies and BCs have a name? Or how do you refer to them? It is nice to hear they do have a calling in life!

ES, i commend you for working so hard with your girl. I have only ever had lazy blob dogs.

Sadly, most of these dogs would end up being called 'unrehomable poundies'. It's brilliant when they do find the right job though!

Good on you ES for persevering.

Thanks guys :) I do love this dog, she is the sweetest girl other than her issues. She is affectionate to me, but her focus is all over the place.

Her circling isn't tight circles (I'm not sure if I'm describing it correctly to be honest) she does huge laps then a few smaller ones. I was watching her run today and when she got ahead of the other dog, she did a few quick small circles then took off again.

[persephone]

would you be able to video a few behaviours? The excitement , the pacing/running in circles ... and the body language when barking?

[Everythings Shiny]

I tried videoing on my iphone, but she runs to fast and the video was beyond blurry. We just bought a new camera yesterday, so when the weather is a bit cooler (I don't cope with the heat) I'll check out how it goes video wise.

[quill]

I can't add anything, (I was thinking the poor creature might have brain damage, but that's been mentioned) but read this thred with great interest and want to commend the O/P for all her work.

[mochi]

Thanks for the explanation dancinbcs and katdogs. I'm finding it so interesting. It must be distressing to see as an owner, your dog in a constant manic state.

All the best ES :) hope all goes well with Steve.

[Chris the Rebel Wolf]

Oh Shiny what a hard time for you and the family Hopefully you and Serenity can work through a solution for you guys. You are wonderful to still be looking for options, keep up the great work * hug *

Some more options for you though it is probably not as good advice as some of the more knowledgeable DOLers before me. Thundershirt to help relieve stress and anxiety? Lightweight cotton shirt that works on pressure points to sooth the nervous system. Hers definitely sounds like it is haywire! I would also be recommending another food to try, I have had several of my customers with ultra sensitive dogs try the Wellness Fish variety and get astounding results. Out of all the many sensitive skin products I get the most positive feedback from it. If you try it please keep receipt because if it doesn't agree with her, you can take it right back and get a full refund.

Keep us posted, and good luck fellow Browncoat :)

[murve]

may I ask what dry food do you have her on??

a couple of suggestions I was going to make have been done, like blood tests.

[koalathebear]

I agree that there are lines like this. I do sometimes wonder if they were given coping mechanisms and taught to stop and settle if they could learn it.....

I totally agree with you, Jumabaar and often wonder this, too ... I've seen quite a few problem Kelpies settle down when moved from their original home into foster care or into a different foster home simply because the handling regime is different.

Elbie, one of my dogs was/is a potentially problem dog, too and at one point the treadmill was recommended for him. We didn't get one and worked with him in other ways but from what I know now especially after having worked with rescue and other Kelpies, I wouldn't recommend a tread mill or amping up exercise for an already hyper dog. As other people have pointed out, it just causes the dog to become superfit and want even more. With all the foster dogs we get through our house, we give them a lot of training before they get adopted out but the first thing they all learn is how to chill out in the house. In the evenings, the humans are on the computer and the dogs are in the study in their beds/crates/on the floor chilling. Most of the fosters are very unsettled/restless when they arrive so will be crated in the study with us. For ones who are not yet crate trained, they get tethered with a leash in the study until they learn to stay in their bed. For the food motivated ones, they get a piece of kibble each time they return to their bed and drop/lay still.

Each new rescue dog that arrives here also goes through the annoying pesky, barking at other dog until it plays/engages with it routine. We do the same thing and reward the dog when it returns to its own bed and lies there quietly - otherwise it is crated or tethered. We've had nuisance barkers and hyperactive dogs - we don't take on aggressive dogs though.

There have been times because of illness in the family (my own or someone else's), the dogs don't get walked for ages and they're fine. Last time I was sick in bed for a week and they all kept me company. They can run around all day but it's very much been reinforced to them that they must learn to chill out.

If Serenity has trouble focusing, maybe you're still asking for a little bit too much - which was what I was doing with my dogs. Obedience classes seem to require you do get a long, melting stare from your dog when you give a 'look at me' or 'watch' command which can be too much for twitchy dogs. With mine, they get a 'yes' and a reward every time they voluntarily make eye contact. Move around and then reward for any kind of eye contact or head turn towards me. These days they will do the long, melting stare but it took time to build that up.

Agility won't be a good option for Serenity until she has a bit more focus and wants the food reward more than chasing the other dogs. Both my dogs can be bolters during agility class, too but as with the other people in the class who have bolters, we learn to try to manage it by working at sufficient distance from other dogs, doing a lot of focus work before we start an exercise and having very yummy treats :p

Good luck with Serenity - it must be a very upsetting time for you

ETA: Sorry if you have already tried any of the above. It's just what we use with our own dogs and the crazy rescue working dogs we get given to foster

Edited January 14, 2013 by koalathebear

[Aphra]

I've had a couple of really hyper Kelpies, but nothing like your girl and I'm impressed with your perseverance and really don't envy you.

I've posted this before, but might be worth a try ... there's some good research about the importance of omega oils for dogs with anxiety so if you aren't already, supplementing her diet with a couple of fish oil capsules a day might help. There is also some research about vitamin lack in dogs with obsessive behaviours. Here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120820093614.htm

[Everythings Shiny]

Oh Shiny what a hard time for you and the family Hopefully you and Serenity can work through a solution for you guys. You are wonderful to still be looking for options, keep up the great work * hug *

Some more options for you though it is probably not as good advice as some of the more knowledgeable DOLers before me. Thundershirt to help relieve stress and anxiety? Lightweight cotton shirt that works on pressure points to sooth the nervous system. Hers definitely sounds like it is haywire! I would also be recommending another food to try, I have had several of my customers with ultra sensitive dogs try the Wellness Fish variety and get astounding results. Out of all the many sensitive skin products I get the most positive feedback from it. If you try it please keep receipt because if it doesn't agree with her, you can take it right back and get a full refund.

Keep us posted, and good luck fellow Browncoat :)

Thanks! Us browncoats have to stick together ;)

may I ask what dry food do you have her on??

a couple of suggestions I was going to make have been done, like blood tests.

Currently she is on Supercoat sensitive. She has been on a numerous amount of different ones over time.

I agree that there are lines like this. I do sometimes wonder if they were given coping mechanisms and taught to stop and settle if they could learn it.....

I totally agree with you, Jumabaar and often wonder this, too ... I've seen quite a few problem Kelpies settle down when moved from their original home into foster care or into a different foster home simply because the handling regime is different.

Elbie, one of my dogs was/is a potentially problem dog, too and at one point the treadmill was recommended for him. We didn't get one and worked with him in other ways but from what I know now especially after having worked with rescue and other Kelpies, I wouldn't recommend a tread mill or amping up exercise for an already hyper dog. As other people have pointed out, it just causes the dog to become superfit and want even more. With all the foster dogs we get through our house, we give them a lot of training before they get adopted out but the first thing they all learn is how to chill out in the house. In the evenings, the humans are on the computer and the dogs are in the study in their beds/crates/on the floor chilling. Most of the fosters are very unsettled/restless when they arrive so will be crated in the study with us. For ones who are not yet crate trained, they get tethered with a leash in the study until they learn to stay in their bed. For the food motivated ones, they get a piece of kibble each time they return to their bed and drop/lay still.

Each new rescue dog that arrives here also goes through the annoying pesky, barking at other dog until it plays/engages with it routine. We do the same thing and reward the dog when it returns to its own bed and lies there quietly - otherwise it is crated or tethered. We've had nuisance barkers and hyperactive dogs - we don't take on aggressive dogs though.

There have been times because of illness in the family (my own or someone else's), the dogs don't get walked for ages and they're fine. Last time I was sick in bed for a week and they all kept me company. They can run around all day but it's very much been reinforced to them that they must learn to chill out.

If Serenity has trouble focusing, maybe you're still asking for a little bit too much - which was what I was doing with my dogs. Obedience classes seem to require you do get a long, melting stare from your dog when you give a 'look at me' or 'watch' command which can be too much for twitchy dogs. With mine, they get a 'yes' and a reward every time they voluntarily make eye contact. Move around and then reward for any kind of eye contact or head turn towards me. These days they will do the long, melting stare but it took time to build that up.

Agility won't be a good option for Serenity until she has a bit more focus and wants the food reward more than chasing the other dogs. Both my dogs can be bolters during agility class, too but as with the other people in the class who have bolters, we learn to try to manage it by working at sufficient distance from other dogs, doing a lot of focus work before we start an exercise and having very yummy treats :p

Good luck with Serenity - it must be a very upsetting time for you

ETA: Sorry if you have already tried any of the above. It's just what we use with our own dogs and the crazy rescue working dogs we get given to foster

Will give it a try :) Thanks :)

I've had a couple of really hyper Kelpies, but nothing like your girl and I'm impressed with your perseverance and really don't envy you.

I've posted this before, but might be worth a try ... there's some good research about the importance of omega oils for dogs with anxiety so if you aren't already, supplementing her diet with a couple of fish oil capsules a day might help. There is also some research about vitamin lack in dogs with obsessive behaviours. Here: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/08/120820093614.htm

She can't keep fish oil down unfortunately, anything slightly unusual from her diet, she vomits

Today as part of my health kick I took her for a ride with my horse. It was an absolute shamozzle. She kept circling my poor horse, very tightly around him, luckily he is super quiet, but a few times as we were doing circle work, she nearly got run over as she circled right in front of Bailey as we were changing direction. Our other dog came down with us and settled behind us, Serenity eventually gave up circling us, and started circling him.