Information On Importing

[JessicaM]

Hello, as the title says I am after some advice from people who have imported a dog from the USA, canada or anywhere overseas!

I read a fantastic post (cant find it now) about a lady who began her dog showing and imported from the usa, she had lhasa apso's... anyway I have my first show bitch and we are doing ok in the ring. I am enjoying every moment of it, I'm new and still learning but I have been thinking about costs, time and if its worth importing a dog...?

I am looking at a papillon, small dog to bring over for new breeding lines and good show quality. I am looking at down the track a year or so.

Where is the best website to look at kennels? How do I go about emaling the owners, I know there needs to be alot of trust in both sides! I'm not sure if I want an adult male or young puppy. So many questions and I want to know as much as possible, I am willing to travel over and visit (on a holiday :)) would it be somewhat easier if I was overseas and could help organise flights and etc?

How much estimated would this cost? On average?

Even if this fails there is always the idea of importing semen for perhaps future breeding if my bitch passes her health tests? Would this be an easier option?

Ah so many questions... I thank anyone who would be kind enough to PM me or reply on here.

And if there is another post thread happy to be directed on there, I did search but couldnt find too much! :-)

[espinay2]

There are quite a few threads in the breeders section so you may want to look about there.

Importing is not cheap or easy and there is no guarantee you will necessarily get a 'better dog' by doing so. There are a lot of pitfalls to be had.

As you are new to the game, I would first recommend biding your time and spending a few years doing research before looking at importing. Research lines and dogs both here and in a lot of countries overseas. Look for breed specific email lists and forums (try to find one that have breeders rather than just pet owners if you can), breed clubs both here and overseas, and any learning opportunities you can find such as seminars and articles on structure and breeding (maybe even look at the intro courses run by MDBA). Even facebook is a good place to make contacts and see and learn about breeders and their dogs. Start getting yourself 'into the breed community'. Listen, learn, question and research. Find a good mentor here if you don't already have one too.

Don't rely on people wanting what you have because it is imported either. They are going to assess the dog and the lines, not the passport and just because it comes from somewhere else does not necessarily mean it will be what anyone wants or needs. But if you can't find what oyu want here, it can be worthwhile if you do your homework well.

A few other things to remember - a breeder will as a rule not sell you their best. Photos can be deceptive. what you think you are getting may not be exactly what you end up with (many an experienced breeder has fallen foul of this too), you may import and the dog/bitch never reproduces. Buying a puppy from overseas is just as much - if not more - of a risk than buying a puppy here. If an older dog is for sale (particularly to a novice such as yourself) there is usually a reason they don't want it (and it is not being sold to a more experienced breeder) so buyer beware.

Now you may luck out and get a great dog from a great breeder. But you will have less risk the more knowledge and reseach you have behind you and the more you are a 'known entity'.

On average, cost of importing a dog you are probably looking at around $10, 000 all up. Pup will not be able to come out until it is around 10 months old, but you will likely have to pay for boarding and upkeep (and things like handler fees etc if you want it shown while waiting). Then you have quarantine (still 30 days currently) and vet expenses. Plus your purchase price (reality - prices go up for people overseas in a lot of cases). You need to find a breeder willing to run a pup on for you or keep a dog for until import requirements have been met. Go to the AQIS website for info on import requirements. You will have to work through a shipper for the arrangements (e.g. dogtainers etc). These companies can also give you better ideas on costs.

You can import semen too and yes it can be a little less expensive (sometimes!) but there is risk involved in that too. You may get no pups and it is not an 'easy' option. You need to be sure the dog will suit your bitch (don't just rely on photos) and overseas does not always equal 'better'. and it has its share of pitfalls. It can be a good option, but again, do your homework. Companies such as Cryogenes can give you an idea of procedure and cost.

It is great that you are so keen, and please don't lose that enthusiasm! But you may need to do a bit more reseach about what you actually want to import and why, and what benefit that will have, first. I.e. instead of just planning to import something (anything), instead look at your breeding plan and goals and what you want to achieve. And if in the long term that involves importing from a specific breeder to achieve that, then all well and good :) . Importing is after all not the end, but the means.

[JessicaM]

Thanks for a great detailed reply, yes I am aware of the pros and cons I also need to do lots of research... I know alot of people dont bother because of all the risks involved but I am dead set keen to import someday. I will be going to some shows when I am over seas to make an apperance and mix with other breeders and exhibiters. I dont want to cut corners doing what I enjoy and im hoping by making an effort someday I will be rewarded and learn more and help others.

The last thing I want is to be ripped off, it has happened to me when I bought my other dog. Was hoping to start showing 2-3 years ago and was convinced this dif was good for a new person like me. Nope the breeder sent me a terrified, huge pap that had poor socail skills and had obviously been abused and timid as heck. After alot of work I have a lovely pet who is very affectionate but this had upset me and I had to wait longer before I could move on and show.

I will have to have a look and search some posts in here, bit difficult on my phone. Alot of research and I will not be completely relying on photos if I do eventually find a dog.

I would like to know.. at some dog shows I find the best in show exhibits are usually titled from their country and also working on their aust title? I take it rhat they are usually abit older?

[espinay2]

Stick with it! It is good to have goals. But don't discount what is here. The grass is not always greener on the other side of the water.

To save you searching here are some articles that are worth reading:

New Breeder's Journey

Seven Foundations of a Successful Dog Breeder

How to choose a mentor

I would like to know.. at some dog shows I find the best in show exhibits

are usually titled from their country and also working on their aust title? I

take it rhat they are usually abit older?

Yes, they mostly will have been imported at a bit older age. Sometimes a breeder will arrange for a dog to stay overseas until it is titled and will pay for it to go with a handler to do this (not cheap!). Sometimes the dog may be here temporarily in an arrangement with its overseas owners and sometimes the dog has been purchased already titled. Generally you will find that these dogs are owned here by established breeders who have already proven themselves through their breeding program (often for many many years) and are 'known' to breeders overseas. Often these people have also bred dogs that have been exported to other countries too (and often have done their fair share of winning overseas).

Edited January 10, 2013 by espinay2

[Keshwar]

I'm curious as to why you would want to import a Papillon when there are 79 Australian breeders listed on DOL?

Would importing a dog give you anything that is not already in Australia?

Given the risks and difficulties involved in importing a dog I was just wondering why you would go down that path before considering one of the many breeders in Aus.

[Greytmate]

The last thing I want is to be ripped off, it has happened to me when I bought my other dog. Was hoping to start showing 2-3 years ago and was convinced this dif was good for a new person like me. Nope the breeder sent me a terrified, huge pap that had poor socail skills and had obviously been abused and timid as heck. After alot of work I have a lovely pet who is very affectionate but this had upset me and I had to wait longer before I could move on and show.

Timidity is not always caused by abuse. It can be inherited. How old was this dog?

I don't know that it's the 'risks involved' that deter most people from importing dogs, rather than not importing because there are so many excellent dogs available here. The people I know that import are ones that have a specific breeding plan that requires an outcross to achieve a particular goal.

[dotdashdot]

Thanks for a great detailed reply, yes I am aware of the pros and cons I also need to do lots of research... I know alot of people dont bother because of all the risks involved but I am dead set keen to import someday. I will be going to some shows when I am over seas to make an apperance and mix with other breeders and exhibiters. I dont want to cut corners doing what I enjoy and im hoping by making an effort someday I will be rewarded and learn more and help others.

The last thing I want is to be ripped off, it has happened to me when I bought my other dog. Was hoping to start showing 2-3 years ago and was convinced this dif was good for a new person like me. Nope the breeder sent me a terrified, huge pap that had poor socail skills and had obviously been abused and timid as heck. After alot of work I have a lovely pet who is very affectionate but this had upset me and I had to wait longer before I could move on and show.

I will have to have a look and search some posts in here, bit difficult on my phone. Alot of research and I will not be completely relying on photos if I do eventually find a dog.

I would like to know.. at some dog shows I find the best in show exhibits are usually titled from their country and also working on their aust title? I take it rhat they are usually abit older?

I understand that you are keen to import, but I would ask why and what you are hoping to add to the Australian Pap's that you cannot get here?

As Greytmate pointed out, generally people that import are importing for a specific reason/trait/line. I.e im hoping to be a part of importing semen soon to add a much needed gene to Aussie Dalmatians, to stop them getting urinary stones.

I'm not trying to be negative, but as someone who is currently going through this process, there is a lot more involved that it first seems! (I'm lucky im in a group of people who've done this sort of thing before!)

[Jumabaar]

I do know of people who's first show dog has been an import because they wanted something specific and went overseas to get it. They had put in the research and time and ended up with exactly what they wanted. Others have imported after showing for 12mths. Alternately there are breeders who have imported multiple times and got burnt at some point. But that doesnt mean you shouldnt aim for the stars!! There are far more good stories than bad ones when it comes to bringing dogs in.

I would begin by trying to attend specialty shows and getting to know what you do and dont like, then look at the relatives of the dogs you do and dont like and go back through pedigrees. If your looking at breeding then I suggest trying to look at young pups and watch them mature so you know what features do/dont change as they grow. I would love to import a dog but it will take me another couple of years before I can consider it and I plan on using that time to look at what lines I am interested in so that I have the highest chance of getting something I would be happy with. There should be pedigree sites internationally where you can look at pictures etc. From there it is networking- here and overseas.

You have some great questions being thrown your way which should help you refine what your thinking. I think its only then that you can answer how hard and how costly it will be and how much you are willing to risk to get an import.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Jumabaar

[Salukifan]

I agree with those who suggest some immersion in the breed via specialties, both here and O/S and also I'd suggest breed lists, discussion forums, Facebook etc.

It will take you a while to get your eye in, determine what type you prefer and figure out who's breeding it and where. You may find some of the top O/S bloodlines are already here.

You might actually decide that you like what's bred here best! In some breeds, Australian dogs can hold their own anywhere. Australian breeder sometimes do some very interesting combining of O/S bloodlines too.

I think importing is a worthy goal though and good on you for having a dream. You will need to get runs on the board to get a top pup from O/S though and there's many a slip between finding and having the dog here with you.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Trisven13]

I have a very rare breed (currently only 35 in Australia) and have an import arriving in a few weeks. I'd been in the breed for 5 years before I started really looking into it and in that time I had spent a LOT of time networking, finding people OS who were happy to help me both in finding a good breeder to import from AND in helping me understand my breed better, the breed standard, showing me photos, videos etc. Loads of Skype conversations and many, many hours of internet research have resulted in a lovely boy heading out here but I'm very, very glad that I waited before I imported.

So... my recommendation is to spend hours online finding dogs you like the look of, google dogs & kennels, follow links to Flickr, to Youtube, to Photobucket etc and then email the people. If you can find people on FB who will add you then try to get to know them. You will learn soooo much more and will have a higher chance of importing a pup that will fill the bill.

[BJean]

Where is the best website to look at kennels? How do I go about emaling the owners, I know there needs to be alot of trust in both sides! I'm not sure if I want an adult male or young puppy. So many questions and I want to know as much as possible, I am willing to travel over and visit (on a holiday :)) would it be somewhat easier if I was overseas and could help organise flights and etc?

How much estimated would this cost? On average?

For a list of Papillon breeders o/s, try:

http://www.eurobreeder.com/breeds/epagneul_nain_continental.html

Email the kennel just as if you were looking for a dog in Australia.

ie choose the sire/dam that you like the look of the most, whose pedigree appeals the most, and which breeder you feel you can communicate best with.

I dont think it matters how many Papillon breeders are in Australia, you may like a puppy from another breeder, just further away :)

Foremost, be sure to choose a dog based on what you want, not what you think others may want.

If you want a male dog that is already titled and established as a stud dog, and you think this dog will match your female, the breeder may be willing to sell the dog to you. But before you ask the owner/breeder, make sure you know what you are looking for and why the dog is the total package for you.

AND

if you can, visit the breeder.

Perhaps choose a breeder or two or three in Europe, and visit this Spring or Autumn. Once you visit, you are then in a better position to know what you want and to also ask for what you want.

The breeder will also be more willing to sell to you, as you would have met them in person and verified your intention.

Good luck !

Edited January 10, 2013 by lilli

[Rebanne]

if you can't visit personally then, if you know someone going OS who you trust, they can check out the dog for you. This is also valuable for importing FS. I'm lending my video camera to my trusty friend so we can discuss things when she gets back :laugh:

I've been in my breed for 6 years and right from the start I knew some sort of importing was going to be needed so have been looking and networking ever since.

[BJean]

Totally OT:

Keshwar: I clicked on your website link and had to write:

I love the layout and writing style. Informative, simple, funny, honest. kewl

[SkySoaringMagpie]

I have imported once before, and am in the middle of doing it again. It is not for the fainthearted. It's expensive and stressful. I agree with the others that an air waybill doesn't make the dog a better dog, and that there are a number of risks associated with buying a dog sight unseen. I have seen the dogs I am importing this time in the flesh, checked the three Ts etc and if I were going to do it again (god forbid) I would do that again too, travel and see them before committing. Even if it is on the other side of the world, as these dogs are. And even then if you are dealing with someone unscrupulous you can still be dudded.

I have titled 5 dogs so far and only one was imported. The first three were locals, and I think starting with a local dog would give you the education you need to make good choices about an import. I went overseas this second time only because I could not see exactly what I want here. And we have a strong breed here, just as Paps do. Before I took this course, I went to shows overseas and visited/spoke with breeders as well.

Show world is littered with expensive imports who did not work out, and resulting breeding where people weren't prepared to call the whole exercise a sunk cost and walk away.

[JessicaM]

Excellent thanks for the website, will have a look... and I am aware there are 79 papillon breeders in aus but alot of them breed and keep their beautiful stock for themselves! Yes fair I know... lol the larger breeders have worked hard for their linesband they wont let anyone just use their dogs or even sell them. I see these people wirt alot of knowlodge and they have their goals.

I'm not just going to venture out and get any one I lile the look of, I'm not stupid and I do realise I will need to do lots and lots of research :) Also why cant I import? I know I could do it dispite the stress and I dont want to cut corners, I will be looking out in aus for paps but I'm going for the chance to look overseas. I am aware rhere are pros and cons and a long waiting and trust time but I would like to perhaps become a great pap breeder in the future and show BISS champions, this is going to be my goal where ever it takes me.

And my dog was 5 months if I can remember... I have never seen such a timid pap before. If myself or my partner would pat him and if we called him over, (we would be on the floor) he would pee everytime and scared unless he was in some horrible fear stage I think he was caged cause he also used to piss his bed all the time! That is not very normal' with dogs, but anyway this isnt about my poor dom :) lol

And also if I add before I got my show bitch it took me 8 months to find her, I emailed and rang dozens of breeders only to find their dogs were (on the larger side and not dainty) no one wanted to give me a bitch with showing and breeding rights (fair I understand) I was asked to be put on a waiting list on a dozen and to be contacted when a show qualiy pap was avaliable, two or three contacted me but I wasnt happy with their size like I said or their colours.. I was after a tri or red and white or sable. Only b/w and alot of the breedees actually scoffed at me enquiring abiut a bitch... put me off alot of the kennels really and lastly a few just breed for money im sure of it because they dont health test, and they constantly have litters...

As far as I see it overseas is a chance to do something great and bring something over which could help alot of the limited stock over here, I do say this because alot of paps come from the same sire and are related aswel. Mot closely related but three generarions ago my two paps have come from the same sire.

Thanks everyone and I'm still going to put this in my goals even if it might take a few more years :)

Where is the best website to look at kennels? How do I go about emaling the owners, I know there needs to be alot of trust in both sides! I'm not sure if I want an adult male or young puppy. So many questions and I want to know as much as possible, I am willing to travel over and visit (on a holiday :)) would it be somewhat easier if I was overseas and could help organise flights and etc?

How much estimated would this cost? On average?

For a list of Papillon breeders o/s, try:

http://www.eurobreeder.com/breeds/epagneul_nain_continental.html

Email the kennel just as if you were looking for a dog in Australia.

ie choose the sire/dam that you like the look of the most, whose pedigree appeals the most, and which breeder you feel you can communicate best with.

I dont think it matters how many Papillon breeders are in Australia, you may like a puppy from another breeder, just further away :)

Foremost, be sure to choose a dog based on what you want, not what you think others may want.

If you want a male dog that is already titled and established as a stud dog, and you think this dog will match your female, the breeder may be willing to sell the dog to you. But before you ask the owner/breeder, make sure you know what you are looking for and why the dog is the total package for you.

AND

if you can, visit the breeder.

Perhaps choose a breeder or two or three in Europe, and visit this Spring or Autumn. Once you visit, you are then in a better position to know what you want and to also ask for what you want.

The breeder will also be more willing to sell to you, as you would have met them in person and verified your intention.

Good luck !

[espinay2]

Excellent thanks for the website, will have a look... and I am aware there are 79 papillon breeders in aus but alot of them breed and keep their beautiful stock for themselves! Yes fair I know... lol the larger breeders have worked hard for their linesband they wont let anyone just use their dogs or even sell them. I see these people wirt alot of knowlodge and they have their goals.

What makes you think breeders overseas will be different? Why would a good breeder overseas give you access to a 'good dog' if breeders here won't? What will you do differently? (and why can't you then do that with breeders here as well?)

Trust and a reputation take time to be earned and sometimes patience is required to get the dogs you want. Some of my dogs I waited several years for. I developed a relationship with the breeder way before I got the dog. But without that relationship I would not have got the dogs I did because the breeder had to know and trust me first. What a breeder will give you access to can be VERY different if they know you better. As a new person you need to get in there and make those relationships and the relationships here will be just as important - actually probably moreso - than ones overseas, as without them you will be operating here in a vaccum.

Make sure you read - and take in - the articles I posted above.

[JessicaM]

New breeders journey was what I orginally read and inspired me! I am always going to be second best so the next best thing to do is look else where and NOT cut corners and do it. This lady began at the bottom and worked hars to get where she is, why cant I get a dog overseas?. and like I said in my previous post that I find the papillons here are getting much larger and heavier and not 'dainty' anymore... why cant I import? I can its not like it is impossible.

Or I could just buy other dog and breed them from australia stock where alot of them came from the same lines... I'd rather sit down search and find with somerthing I'd be happy with.

Stick with it! It is good to have goals. But don't discount what is here. The grass is not always greener on the other side of the water.

To save you searching here are some articles that are worth reading:

New Breeder's Journey

Seven Foundations of a Successful Dog Breeder

How to choose a mentor

I would like to know.. at some dog shows I find the best in show exhibits

are usually titled from their country and also working on their aust title? I

take it rhat they are usually abit older?

Yes, they mostly will have been imported at a bit older age. Sometimes a breeder will arrange for a dog to stay overseas until it is titled and will pay for it to go with a handler to do this (not cheap!). Sometimes the dog may be here temporarily in an arrangement with its overseas owners and sometimes the dog has been purchased already titled. Generally you will find that these dogs are owned here by established breeders who have already proven themselves through their breeding program (often for many many years) and are 'known' to breeders overseas. Often these people have also bred dogs that have been exported to other countries too (and often have done their fair share of winning overseas).

Edited January 11, 2013 by JessicaM

[Salukifan]

And my dog was 5 months if I can remember... I have never seen such a timid pap before. If myself or my partner would pat him and if we called him over, (we would be on the floor) he would pee everytime and scared unless he was in some horrible fear stage I think he was caged cause he also used to piss his bed all the time! That is not very normal' with dogs, but anyway this isnt about my poor dom :) lol

This may have been submissive wetting. It's not uncommon in pups and most grow out of it.

As far as I see it overseas is a chance to do something great and bring something over which could help alot of the limited stock over here, I do say this because alot of paps come from the same sire and are related aswel. Mot closely related but three generarions ago my two paps have come from the same sire.

It may also break your heart. Not every import experience is a positive one and at least a couple of imports have turned out to be sterile. Also not uncommon for a pup to be promised and the promise retracted when it shows real potential. Proceed with caution and don't make the mistake of thinking that the standard of ethics of overseas breeders varies any less than it does here.

[espinay2]

New breeders journey was what I orginally read and inspired me! I am always going to be second best so the next best thing to do is look else where and NOT cut corners and do it. This lady began at the bottom and worked hars to get where she is, why cant I get a dog overseas?. and like I said in my previous post that I find the papillons here are getting much larger and heavier and not 'dainty' anymore... why cant I import? I can its not like it is impossible.

Or I could just buy other dog and breed them from australia stock where alot of them came from the same lines... I'd rather sit down search and find with somerthing I'd be happy with.

There is no reason why you shouldn't import. But it is important to remember that you will need to develop relationships with breeders here too. One thing to note about that article is that not only did he import, but he made relationships with breeders in his own country and learnt from them. If you go to his website you will see him mention the help he got from breeders in Finland as well as with breeders around the world. Building these relationships is something he stresses as being vitally important.

Edited January 11, 2013 by espinay2

[minimax]

Are you a breeder? If you're looking to import a dog for new breeding lines ... are you going to breed with the dog in question?