Pound Rounds

[melzawelza]

Aren't Pitbull and AmStaff crosses allowed to be legally rehomed in NSW... I seem to remember something about only supposedly pure Pitbulls are restricted... and how many pure Pitties would we really see then?

T.

Amstaff crosses aren't restricted ever.

Pit crosses can be restricted, if they fail a temp test. If they pass they're safe and can live like any other dog.

Very, very VERY few dogs come back as pure bred APBT. I've never seen one come back as such but have been told of one or two cases. Dogs NSW don't recognise the breed so I don't see how anyone from that organisation could then state that the dog is pure bred anyway. The whole thing is so stupid.

I know Waverley council has a strict policy on pitty looking dogs.

What's the policy?

[mixeduppup]

http://www.waverley.nsw.gov.au/council_services/animal_services/restricted_dogs

This bit worries me the most

Council may declare a dog as restricted

If Council is of the opinion that a dog is of a breed, kind of breed or is a cross-breed of a restricted dog, Council may give notice to the owner of the dog of its intentions to declare the dog to be restricted.

This means if a pitbull looking dog comes into the pound they have the right to classify it as a restricted breed

[tdierikx]

Maybe all Aussie breed assessors should study the following... seeing as there actually are very few pure Pitties around...

http://www.pitbullsontheweb.com/petbull/findpit.html

I managed it first go, but how many council rangers do you think could? Let alone Joe Public or anyone in the media...

T.

[Jingle Bells]

Here's my reply:

As a rescuer I watch the pounds all the time. I am an ethical rescuer and do not agree that DA dogs should be rescued/rehomed, ESPECIALLY when they jump fences. This is a huge risk to the community at large and particularly the case in strong powerful dogs. If the pounds were operating with due diligence, they would not be releasing these animals at all. I have major concerns about ANY rescue group that takes these types of dogs on – do they do homechecks? Do they check the abilities/habits of the new owners (ie do they take the dog to a dog park, let it off the lead and so on)? Are they 100% sure that these dogs will NEVER be in a situation where they can attack another animal or a person who tries to defend their pet from attack? Only then could it be remotely acceptable and is almost beyond the realms of possibility to cover every scenario.

Please move my email address from your mailing list – I wish to have no communication or association whatsoever with you personally or Pound Rounds.

I have not read all these posts but you should know there is a Facebook page, Pound Rounds Beware with lots of horror stories. I am not sure if you have seen it, Many people PM the admin of the page as they don't want to be harassed by MN and her "followers", especially one religious nutcase who uses guilt tripping to get people to give dogs a home.

[Jingle Bells]

It's not just "convention via dogz". I have been a member here for many years and at the same time ran a program for five years. The DOL culture has been influenced by best practices in rescue. We didn't invent our conventions here. Most of us realise that assessment is the one most important part of making sure the wider community isn't put put in danger unnecessarily. Even the big shelters that people 'love to hate' use assessment.

Im not suggesting the convention is only here or that it was invented here however, in the main most people who stay here hold the same beliefs and ethics - its reasonable to say its a convention that most dogz rescue forum users agree with. It is not however, what is necessarily practiced by other rescue people and its not something that has to be practiced in order to be within the law in the state of NSW.

No it's not law, it's best practice to assess dogs.

And it's illegal to make false claims.

What are false or misleading representations?

It is unlawful to make false claims or misleading descriptions:

• about the supply or possible supply of consumer goods or services
• when promoting the supply or use of goods or services.

For instance, your business must not make false or misleading representations

• the standard, quality, value or grade of goods or services

And it's illegal to engage in misleading or deceptive conduct as well,

What is misleading or deceptive conduct?

'Conduct' includes actions and statements, such as:

• advertisements
• promotions
• quotations
• statements
• any representation made by a person.

Business conduct is likely to break the law if it creates a misleading overall impression among the intended audience about the price, value or quality of consumer goods or services.

Whether you intended to mislead or deceive is irrelevant; what matters is how your statements and actions - your 'business conduct' – could affect the thoughts and beliefs of a consumer.

I think it could be seen as deceptive to be promoting dogs like the dog aggressive, fence jumping red-nosed amstaff as being suitable for people to take home. I think the dog is faulty goods. It's not illegal not to assess, but it is illegal to make claims that you are not qualified to make that could result in a person being misled.

That is a point worth taking further I think, if the claims on Facebook are true, a few people could have legal actions against Pound Rounds.

[keetamouse]

We are all aware of the fb page, "Pound Rounds beware", there is also a campaigne collecting all the in fo on them so watch this space....

Edited January 6, 2013 by keetamouse

[melzawelza]

http://www.waverley.nsw.gov.au/council_services/animal_services/restricted_dogs

This bit worries me the most

Council may declare a dog as restricted

If Council is of the opinion that a dog is of a breed, kind of breed or is a cross-breed of a restricted dog, Council may give notice to the owner of the dog of its intentions to declare the dog to be restricted.

This means if a pitbull looking dog comes into the pound they have the right to classify it as a restricted breed

That's just the exact wording of the Companion Animals Act, most Councils (if not all) have the same thing on their website. I know the pound Waverley uses very well, don't stress. They subcontract to 11 different Councils.

They aren't as progressive with 'suspect' looking dogs as the other major pounds in Sydney and it can be a bit more of a headache but most of the time if the dog is 'suspect' but rehomable temp wise it is released to rescue and breed/temp assessed so that everything is legal and above board. It's a really good pound.

Edited January 6, 2013 by melzawelza

[mixeduppup]

That's good to know. I've heard some pretty crappy things about it. But people will talk.

[melzawelza]

That's good to know. I've heard some pretty crappy things about it. But people will talk.

Up until a couple of years ago not many suspect dogs at that pound had the opportunity to be breed/temp assessed and were just PTS regardless but these days they have a much better chance

That's not to say that the Council itself isn't very aggressive in their approach to dogs they believe may be restricted breeds, I don't know if they are or they aren't, but they don't run their own pound so therefore they have limited input into the outcome of their impounded animals.

[amp]

Here is a good one:

Sanctuary Tails is another arm of Pound Rounds whereby they get the dogs out then kennel them for goodness knows how long!

Riley went to Vic about June last year - not sure how long he was in the pound for before that....within a few weeks he had broken out of the yard as the gate was being closed. Attacked a little dog that was being walked nearby, nipped the new owners child. MN eventually arrived, using a false name to take Riley away to a local kennel, where he stayed for a month or so until the owner there threatened to put him in a pound due to his chewing/escaping antics. Now he is back in NSW at STAR awaiting adoption.

As usual no disclosure & the poor thing has been kenneled for months!

[Alyosha]

Thanks T, interesting. Here are the qualifications to become a breed assessor in NSW:

Persons interested in becoming a breed assessor should:

• be an ANKC All Breeds Judge, having judged the Terrier Group for 2 years, or

• be an ANKC Terrier Specialist Judge, or

• be an ANKC Group Judge for a minimum of 2 years, or

• have owned ANKC registered American Staffordshire Terriers or Staffordshire Terriers or Bull Terriers for a minimum of 5 years and have bred a minimum of 3 registered litters.

(If not a qualified judge, show competence in identifying all mastiff breeds and all terriers).

I wonder how many All Breeds Judges are doing this? Mostly, and understandably, the expertise required lies within the terrier group.

Bit of joke really that ANKC have the monopoly on the assessment when they are assessing dogs which are of a breed they say doesn't exist and they have a bias against cross bred dogs.

Not really, as it's the Amstaff breed that most often wears the results of poor or deliberately misleading breed identifications on potential restricted breed types. If I was an Amstaff breeder or judge - too right I would want to be be having a say on what was classed as an example of my breed within the community.

And when it comes down to it - the Amstaff breed standard doesn't contain red or brown noses, they are not accepted in the breed. So the "Amstaff" that left BP this week, chipped as such - is not one. If there is a problem with that dog down the track, the reputation goes back to the Amstaff breed, and the ANKC who recognise it.

I'm not anti pitbull by a long shot. But I think pound breed identification is pretty poor at the best of times and at the worst of times has the potential to damage the reputation of many breeds and even breeders that don't deserve it.

[melzawelza]

Thanks T, interesting. Here are the qualifications to become a breed assessor in NSW:

Persons interested in becoming a breed assessor should:

• be an ANKC All Breeds Judge, having judged the Terrier Group for 2 years, or

• be an ANKC Terrier Specialist Judge, or

• be an ANKC Group Judge for a minimum of 2 years, or

• have owned ANKC registered American Staffordshire Terriers or Staffordshire Terriers or Bull Terriers for a minimum of 5 years and have bred a minimum of 3 registered litters.

(If not a qualified judge, show competence in identifying all mastiff breeds and all terriers).

I wonder how many All Breeds Judges are doing this? Mostly, and understandably, the expertise required lies within the terrier group.

Bit of joke really that ANKC have the monopoly on the assessment when they are assessing dogs which are of a breed they say doesn't exist and they have a bias against cross bred dogs.

Not really, as it's the Amstaff breed that most often wears the results of poor or deliberately misleading breed identifications on potential restricted breed types. If I was an Amstaff breeder or judge - too right I would want to be be having a say on what was classed as an example of my breed within the community.

And when it comes down to it - the Amstaff breed standard doesn't contain red or brown noses, they are not accepted in the breed. So the "Amstaff" that left BP this week, chipped as such - is not one. If there is a problem with that dog down the track, the reputation goes back to the Amstaff breed, and the ANKC who recognise it.

I'm not anti pitbull by a long shot. But I think pound breed identification is pretty poor at the best of times and at the worst of times has the potential to damage the reputation of many breeds and even breeders that don't deserve it.

I've been told by some of my Amstaff breeder friends that red noses crop up ever so occasionally. Very, very rare in this country but happens nonetheless.

And why wouldn't it, they're genetically identical dogs - nothing was added to the APBT to create the Amstaff, and there are still dogs in the states that are dual registered.

[Alyosha]

So these very rare ones from ANKC breeders, from registered breeders - that by regs are chipped and limited registered are accounting for the red nosed "amstaffs" that are advertised from pounds almost every week? And running about crossbreeding with others to create the "amstaff crosses" with red noses?

I would find it concerning if I was an amstaff breeder, that my breed's name was potentially being used as a scapegoat label for unrelated crossbred dogs of unknown origin and background that may be restricted breeds, or may be antisocial or dangerous dogs (as the one at the start of this thread may be...). Just as I would find it concerning to be a mastiff breeder to see how many black masked fawn crossbreds are labelled mastiffs.

So I don't see why it should be considered unusual for the ANKC to have input in breed identification at all.

[melzawelza]

So these very rare ones from ANKC breeders, from registered breeders - that by regs are chipped and limited registered are accounting for the red nosed "amstaffs" that are advertised from pounds almost every week? And running about crossbreeding with others to create the "amstaff crosses" with red noses?

I would find it concerning if I was an amstaff breeder, that my breed's name was potentially being used as a scapegoat label for unrelated crossbred dogs of unknown origin and background that may be restricted breeds, or may be antisocial or dangerous dogs (as the one at the start of this thread may be...). Just as I would find it concerning to be a mastiff breeder to see how many black masked fawn crossbreds are labelled mastiffs.

So I don't see why it should be considered unusual for the ANKC to have input in breed identification at all.

If I was an Amstaff breeder I'd just be concerned with BSL being in existence, not the fact that people are trying to save their dogs lives. The only way to stop it is to end BSL.

[melzawelza]

So these very rare ones from ANKC breeders, from registered breeders - that by regs are chipped and limited registered are accounting for the red nosed "amstaffs" that are advertised from pounds almost every week? And running about crossbreeding with others to create the "amstaff crosses" with red noses?

I would find it concerning if I was an amstaff breeder, that my breed's name was potentially being used as a scapegoat label for unrelated crossbred dogs of unknown origin and background that may be restricted breeds, or may be antisocial or dangerous dogs (as the one at the start of this thread may be...). Just as I would find it concerning to be a mastiff breeder to see how many black masked fawn crossbreds are labelled mastiffs.

So I don't see why it should be considered unusual for the ANKC to have input in breed identification at all.

If I was an Amstaff breeder I'd just be concerned with BSL being in existence, not the fact that people are trying to save their dogs lives. The only way to stop it is to end BSL.

Edit: I see very few red nosed dogs in pounds being listed as pure bred Amstaffs. Most are listed as Amstaff X and that's absolutely plausible.

Edited January 8, 2013 by melzawelza

[OutOfSightHound]

What I find most disturbing about PR is what was demonstrated in the response keetamouse got from them.

They are making the case for dogs that require training and rehabilitation - fine. In theory, I can support that. The problem is that they are not actually PROVIDING training or rehabilitation, and are facilitating the release of dogs that do require those things into the hands of people who aren't qualified or experienced to give those things.

If you want to make the case that dogs that fall through the cracks of the pound-rescue interface are the ones that really deserve 'rescue', fine. If you want to spend your time, effort and money on rehabilitating those dogs - great, more power to you. But they're not. They're just putting them wherever they can. Given that, I doubt anyone with the level of experience required to rehabilitate or address the behavioural issues of a DA or HA dog would actually work with Pound Rounds.

... preaching to the choir, I know.

They also promote the harmful myth that all dogs are inherently good unless mistreated and all psychological issues can be overcome.

Hmm it is a common misconception that certain issues mean the dog has been mistreated. Sadly temprment due to poor breeding can play a part. I personally know of a breeder friend who put a dog down becasue it had serious temprement issues. It was awful and she had spent huge dollars importing it but she felt she couldn't breed from this dog because it had serious human and dog agression issues even though it had NEVER been mistreated!

I OFTEN WISH THE PUBLIC WAS MORE EDUCATED ON THIS!

I'm currently helping someone with a seriously bad tempered maltese shitzu from a PET SHOP. His problem is bad temprement combined with being spoiled rotten and no discipline making him a monster. The people are totally mistified as their last 2 were spoiled rotten no dsicipling but had no issues. I tell them its temprement and that they got a seriously dominant male puppy. Their other dog although spolied with no discipline she is sweet natured and very placid. Yet they still don't get what it means when I tell them their dog has a bad temprement and that even with all the training we are putting in he will never be a nice trust worthy dog *sigh*.

As someone who keeps big dogs there is no way I'd breed a big dog with his temprement becasue it's an accident waiting to hppen!

[OutOfSightHound]

A lot of dogs just aren't worth rehoming and that is the sad reality. They (people promoting and facilitating release, PR, the pounds etc) put people, other animals and the general public perception of rescue dogs at risk when they adopt out these types of dogs. Sure, some dogs can be rehabbed or managed by experienced dog handlers but the general public do not have years of behavioural experience to do this and they end up with a dog that they cannot handle and is potentially dangerous because of a pretty picture with a captioned lie at the bottom.

As someone who helps other people with their "bad" dogs I certianly wouldn't adopt one! My babies were from reputable breeders I had relationships with and I chose 2 adult dogs that suited my personality and fitted in with my family as even within breeds there are wide vaiations on personality. The fact is most people with the experience and ability to deal with these dogs don't want them. Peronally if I'm going to spend hours and hours training a dog i want to compete in dog sport not just get my dog to behave enough so I can take it for a walk or leave it at home without all the neighbours calling the council becasue of incesent barking and howling! I do enough of it for other people I want to come home and enjoy my dogs go for a stress free walk and go to dog sport comps on my weekend.

[OutOfSightHound]

Yes T, I get what you are saying. Chis are biters (I'm not partial to them generally) but they are not going to rip someone's limb off or kill them - not even a child. Much greater care needs to be taken with large powerful breeds of dog (this includes Rottis etc) and i agree that temperament should also be considered rather than looks when dogs are assessed.

Don't underestimate the damage little dogs can do to babies and small children. I have a friend who is terrified of any dog becasue as a 1 year old she had her face reconstructed after having it ripped open by a JRT. I'd say the psycological damage is just as bad if not worse as she will cross streets to aviod even chis!

[OutOfSightHound]

It's not just "convention via dogz". I have been a member here for many years and at the same time ran a program for five years. The DOL culture has been influenced by best practices in rescue. We didn't invent our conventions here. Most of us realise that assessment is the one most important part of making sure the wider community isn't put put in danger unnecessarily. Even the big shelters that people 'love to hate' use assessment.

Im not suggesting the convention is only here or that it was invented here however, in the main most people who stay here hold the same beliefs and ethics - its reasonable to say its a convention that most dogz rescue forum users agree with. It is not however, what is necessarily practiced by other rescue people and its not something that has to be practiced in order to be within the law in the state of NSW.

No it's not law, it's best practice to assess dogs.

And it's illegal to make false claims.

What are false or misleading representations?

It is unlawful to make false claims or misleading descriptions:

• about the supply or possible supply of consumer goods or services
• when promoting the supply or use of goods or services.

For instance, your business must not make false or misleading representations

• the standard, quality, value or grade of goods or services

And it's illegal to engage in misleading or deceptive conduct as well,

What is misleading or deceptive conduct?

'Conduct' includes actions and statements, such as:

• advertisements
• promotions
• quotations
• statements
• any representation made by a person.

Business conduct is likely to break the law if it creates a misleading overall impression among the intended audience about the price, value or quality of consumer goods or services.

Whether you intended to mislead or deceive is irrelevant; what matters is how your statements and actions - your 'business conduct' – could affect the thoughts and beliefs of a consumer.

I think it could be seen as deceptive to be promoting dogs like the dog aggressive, fence jumping red-nosed amstaff as being suitable for people to take home. I think the dog is faulty goods. It's not illegal not to assess, but it is illegal to make claims that you are not qualified to make that could result in a person being misled.

That is a point worth taking further I think, if the claims on Facebook are true, a few people could have legal actions against Pound Rounds.

Does pound Rounds have a licence to fund raise? If not the ATO would love to know! You get more time in jail for tax evasion and fundrasing without a license than animal cruelty!

[Sheridan]

What I find most disturbing about PR is what was demonstrated in the response keetamouse got from them.

They are making the case for dogs that require training and rehabilitation - fine. In theory, I can support that. The problem is that they are not actually PROVIDING training or rehabilitation, and are facilitating the release of dogs that do require those things into the hands of people who aren't qualified or experienced to give those things.

If you want to make the case that dogs that fall through the cracks of the pound-rescue interface are the ones that really deserve 'rescue', fine. If you want to spend your time, effort and money on rehabilitating those dogs - great, more power to you. But they're not. They're just putting them wherever they can. Given that, I doubt anyone with the level of experience required to rehabilitate or address the behavioural issues of a DA or HA dog would actually work with Pound Rounds.

... preaching to the choir, I know.

They also promote the harmful myth that all dogs are inherently good unless mistreated and all psychological issues can be overcome.

Hmm it is a common misconception that certain issues mean the dog has been mistreated. Sadly temprment due to poor breeding can play a part. I personally know of a breeder friend who put a dog down becasue it had serious temprement issues. It was awful and she had spent huge dollars importing it but she felt she couldn't breed from this dog because it had serious human and dog agression issues even though it had NEVER been mistreated!

I OFTEN WISH THE PUBLIC WAS MORE EDUCATED ON THIS!

I'm currently helping someone with a seriously bad tempered maltese shitzu from a PET SHOP. His problem is bad temprement combined with being spoiled rotten and no discipline making him a monster. The people are totally mistified as their last 2 were spoiled rotten no dsicipling but had no issues. I tell them its temprement and that they got a seriously dominant male puppy. Their other dog although spolied with no discipline she is sweet natured and very placid. Yet they still don't get what it means when I tell them their dog has a bad temprement and that even with all the training we are putting in he will never be a nice trust worthy dog *sigh*.

As someone who keeps big dogs there is no way I'd breed a big dog with his temprement becasue it's an accident waiting to hppen!

I once worked with someone who got a puppy from a pet shop. Some long time later I asked her how the puppy was and she said she had it pts because it was feral and no matter what she did, she couldn't control it. Attacking, biting, completely uncontrollable. She got the puppy at five weeks ...