Pound Rounds

[tdierikx]

Unfortunately the DNA result from a real Pitbull and a real AmStaff would come back as identical dogmad - they are essentially 2 lines of the same breed... yet the AmStaff is legal here, and the Pitbull is a restricted breed in most states of Australia.

The only real way to prove the difference between the two would be with pedigree papers - but where does that leave unpapered AmStaffs? Do we simply just blanket all unpapered AmStaffs as Pitbulls? That would then lead to the assumption that there are myriad Pitbulls out there in society, which seems kinda strange seeing as the real deal is a restricted breed and can't legally be bred or sold in most States.

There are a lot of dog breeds that come with red noses - Kelpies spring to mind. My yellow Lab also has a reddish nose, which isn't uncommon either. I've seen Pei's with red noses as well...

I know you aren't fussed on bull breeds dogmad, but for some of us who share our lives with our beloved bull breeds, it seems a bit unfair to have them described with generalisations. I really need to introduce you to my old girl Zeddy (who IS actually part pitbull), and my latest addition Harper (who is obviously of a "pigging" mix) - Harper's fave playmate in the whole world is a 3kg scruffy terrier (and Harper is 18.2kgs now and still growing).

As for unknown mix bull breed types found in pounds, I'd be more likely to want a qualified temperament assessor to have their say, rather than just a breed assessment and generalising about possible temperament based on looks alone.

The way we have come to view the Pitbull is a real shame... what if the same sort of media focus was aimed at Chihuahuas as all being nasty snappy little ankle biters... which we all know is a complete fallacy - most Chis are lovely little dogs, right? Even though the Chi is a much smaller and less powerful dog, it could still inflict serious harm to a child's face, yes?

T.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Yes T, I get what you are saying. Chis are biters (I'm not partial to them generally) but they are not going to rip someone's limb off or kill them - not even a child. Much greater care needs to be taken with large powerful breeds of dog (this includes Rottis etc) and i agree that temperament should also be considered rather than looks when dogs are assessed.

Edited January 5, 2013 by dogmad

[tdierikx]

Hehe... you know that my Zeddy is Rottie/Pittie cross... *giggle*

Small dogs can cause serious injury as well though - I've seen up close what a Malt type dog can do to a person's face with one bite - they will have that large scar for life. Add that to the fact that small children are more likely to approach a small (read cute and fluffy) dog than a large one, and you might see where I'm coming from with regards to my statements about proper temperament assessment (for ALL dogs looking to be rehomed, be they from a pound OR rescue).

Most "good" rescues that have some clue about what they are doing will have a very good idea about the temperament of the dogs they are looking to rehome - and will do the right thing by the community if a dog turns out to be not suitable for rehoming. Then again, most rescues that have a clue will also be well versed in how to select a dog from a pound to ensure they are going to take in a dog that CAN be rehomed in good conscience.

Those that look at everything with a pulse as needing a second (or third or fourth) chance really need to step back and assess what sort of damage they can do to the name of ALL rescue with a careless placement of an untested dog of any size, shape, or breed mix.

T.

[Steve]

No it's not law, it's best practice to assess dogs.

And it's illegal to make false claims.

Now here is part of the problem in NSW you have a whole heap of different people running around saying what is best practice

there is no law or mandatory codes on what is best practice for rescue in this state but even if we began advocating for laws and codes for rescue to be introduced PR are not rescuing.

Wanting laws which would make someone who is advising people of where they can get a dog from a third party [ pound] to be held responsible for that dog after it goes home is never going to wash. Its akin to a migration agent who helps someone come into the country being held responsible if they later commit a crime or an employment agent being held accountable if the person they send for a job steals form the employer etc.

You may be able to go after them on false advertising but that's a hard ask as well. If it were that easy we would have taken on Don Burke when he promoted cross bred dogs to be something they were not . It is the pound's responsibility to ensure anyone taking a dog knows the issues the dog has and if the dog comes home and rips someone child's throat out it is the pound which handles the transaction. If you went through ads on Pet Rescue website many of the ads would be in this category where the wording is designed to make the dog seem more appealing and create a greater interest in the dog. There have been threads on this forum advising rescue on how to write ads like this and there would be more than PR which went down for it. Its still up to the person handing the dog over to ensure it all covered.

Let me be clear on this in case it isn't obvious I don't like one little bit what is going on here but there isnt any point in having a hundred threads on this and everyone getting mad about it if the problem isnt clearly identified and solution isnt able to be addressed.

ANYONE or ANY GROUP or ANY WEBSITE can advise someone that if they call a specific pound that the dog of their dreams or the dog which will be saved from death by them and make them feel all warm and fuzzy may be able to be their new family member.

ZUG ZUG took a dog home from the pound and had a terrible experience without the help of PR and any person going to a pound to seek a new dog could be in the same spot. The community expects that a pound wont allow them to take home a dog which will put them or their family at risk and that they will advise them of issues they may need to manage so they have the ability to make an informed decision on whether they will take the dog home. PR has the right to assume that the pound will do what is required and that anyone taking any dog knows the issues and that the dog is not too bad or surely the pound would never have offered it for sale in the first place?????? Why wouldn't they offer help to someone who wanted to take the dog but couldn't afford it etc as theoretically the dog is only in this spot because those who may be able to take it home don't know its there not because it shouldn't be in someone's home.

The problem is that dogs are able to be rehomed without proper assessment and without screening the owner to anyone who says they will take it. These type of dogs should either only be released to rescue groups who will do the hard work or the pound needs to have their own systems in place to ensure dogs and families are not put at risk when they release dogs to new owners.

Its highly unlikely that pounds are going to do this without legislation because it will affect the stats and be less cost effective

Do we want laws introduced which will ensure any dogs which are saved which are a bit iffy can only be saved by a rescue group which will take over the responsibility, do we want laws which will ensure dogs are better assessed and that certain behaviours are not released to anyone ?Do we want laws which would prevent anyone advertising which dogs are available and how to source them ? Each of these have unintended consequences which would impact on small rescue and more dogs will be PTS.

If we dont want law changes and we want it all to say as it is then we need to promote to the public what the difference is and by default advise them not to go to a pound to get a dog because dogs straight from the pound are not as safe as those through a reputable ethical rescue group.If that is to work as well as it can these ethics will need to be transparent and policies and actions accountable to a third party to enable the public to know who is who.

This of course will see those who want all dogs saved and everyone racing off to pounds to save them before they get the chop to get pretty mad and start whacking into you.

PR isnt the problem its a symptom of the problem and in my opinion it way past time for a solution to be found before it means laws.

[Steve]

Im with dogmad all dogs regardless of size should have real assessments done on them but I do think that dogs which are bigger and more powerful regardless of what breed they may be need to be really looked at hard simply because if a chi goes nuts it puts a small wound in my child but bigger more powerful dog means potential disaster.

[Guest muttrus]

I bought my first ever dog from the pound 21 plus years ago .A pittie x 6 months old passed away from old age a few years ago never bit or harmed anyone or anything.Another dog I got from the same pound a QLD bull arab x now 8 years old dare I say best dog ever .Another failed foster came from blacktown pound outstanding dog still has stranger fears .

We had our bull arab pts after 4 years (not a pound dog) as he had a brain snap and killed everything in site and could jump 8ft fences.Ive been to the pound and even saved some BUT I always promote awareness and the need to test the dog you may wish to adopt.

After one of my own fosters was adopted as a pup and grew up to become a dangerous dog I suggested him be PTS .I TRULY believe any form of dangerous dog has NO part of society.

Because of this I was given a mass amount of judgement backlash and had people who solely believe in NO KILL of any dog turn me into their witch hunt .PET RESCUE played a big part and wrote to me saying EVERY DOG was rehomable and they are working to a future where there will be no need for a pound of any kind.

I love poundies but Im not an idoit either .I think pound rounds has such a strong following that its very misleading to the public .People want to be a part of something good and looking at the amount of people following them I guess people see that as a sign they must be good.

I met someone from pound rounds ONCE when I was at the pound they had a family and were showing them dogs to adopt thei phone was running hot and pound staff gave them HEAPS of attention (where as me a member of the public couldn"t find anyone to direct me )

Im now confused as they have become very big the saying ""a rolling stone gathers no moss"" springs to mind .

A dog doesn"t have to be a certain breed or large to be dangerous I saw a tea cup chi slipped out of her collar one day took off barking and launched herself at another dog .Because she"s little dog no one cared and it was laughed off.I bet had my 49kg bull did the same the reaction would have been alot different.

ANYWAY greymate I liked your comments .A sad photo and some well written tug at the heart strings story is very powerful and has a strong effect.I now know two people who have joined pound rounds thinking they are changing the world and although I have told them all I know they maintain while Im doing a great job rehoming needy dogs its not on the same scale as poundrounds .And there in lies human nature they were happy to help the little guy BUT with pound rounds they get to boast how they have saved x amount of dogs "" oh and how special they are ""

[keetamouse]

I can't believe that Blacktown Pound released all of the dogs on the latest list regardless of them being problem dogs ie fence jumpers, dog agressive, I also can't believe that reputable rescue have taken these dogs knowing that they will be with them for some considerable time, and can be dangerous also taking dogs that are known to be dog agressive in the pound, as we know most reputable rescue have already dogs in their homes, so where have these dogs gone, I dread to think

Maree

CPR

[Greytmate]

Thanks melza. Dogmad I would guess that the people doing the assessment don't have a clue about basic genetics or dog breeding if they think red noses can be passed on by only one parent.

[melzawelza]

Personally I would prefer to see DNA testing done on dogs rather than have a breed assessor. This of course won't happen as it would cost over $100.

I've seen a number of dogs identified as "Vizsla" crosses. Vizslas are not that common and this could well end up harming the reputation of what is a very good natured breed.

Who's to say they weren't Viszla crosses though?

Don't get me wrong, visual breed ID of mixed breed unknown dogs is bloody stupid, science tells us it's completely unreliable. But that means that your assessment that the dog ISN'T a Viszla X is just as silly as an assessment that it is. Breed assessing in general is stupid but it's the law currently and it means that blacktown and the other major Sydney pounds are meeting their obligations and not breaking the law.

Love your statement that Pit bulls being misidentified as Viszla crosses would harm the reputation of a 'good natured' breed (with the insinuation that 'pit bulls' as a whole are not good natured). There are many, MANY more than 'a few' dogs that have had their breed assessment come back as Viszla X but I don't see any reputations ruined yet.

Greytmate the breed assessors are dogs NSW judges. From memory they have to have been a terrier specialist judge for 2 years or an all breeds judge for 4 years. Pit bull X are not restricted in NSW unless they fail a temperament assessment so if the dog comes back as such they are temp tested before release. The temp testers are government approved.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

I actually thought that some pound staff were able to become qualified as breed assessors? From what Melzawela is saying, that is not correct?

[Steve]

I actually thought that some pound staff were able to become qualified as breed assessors? From what Melzawela is saying, that is not correct?

Not in NSW

[Horsegal98]

I find it a bit hard to stomach that PR manages to canvas so many donations to pay to keep ex pound dogs in kennels and boarding situations. It can't be much of a better life for them, especially the ones that can't socialise well with other dogs or people well. These funds would be better off channeled into rescue dogs, supporting foster carers, subsidised desexing for the needy, programs for pensioner pets etc. I have to concede the fact that PR does a bloody great job at getting money off people, I just wish it could actually be used to benefit animals in general rather than the way it gets spent.

[tdierikx]

Breed assessment guidelines and criteria... read section 2 for how to become one...

http://www.dlg.nsw.gov.au/dlg/dlghome/documents/Forms/Guidelines_For_Breed_Assessors.pdf

T.

[melzawelza]

I actually thought that some pound staff were able to become qualified as breed assessors? From what Melzawela is saying, that is not correct?

Not unless they're also dogs NSW judges.

[Her Majesty Dogmad]

Thanks T, interesting. Here are the qualifications to become a breed assessor in NSW:

Persons interested in becoming a breed assessor should:

• be an ANKC All Breeds Judge, having judged the Terrier Group for 2 years, or

• be an ANKC Terrier Specialist Judge, or

• be an ANKC Group Judge for a minimum of 2 years, or

• have owned ANKC registered American Staffordshire Terriers or Staffordshire Terriers or Bull Terriers for a minimum of 5 years and have bred a minimum of 3 registered litters.

(If not a qualified judge, show competence in identifying all mastiff breeds and all terriers).

I wonder how many All Breeds Judges are doing this? Mostly, and understandably, the expertise required lies within the terrier group.

Vizslas are not a terrier, here's the description of the breed, including the mention of the red nose:

The body structure of a Vizsla is very similar in appearance to a Weimaraner, though the Vizsla is typically leaner with a more defined musculature. Weimaraners and Rhodesian Ridgebacks are larger than Vizslas. The nose of the Vizsla will always have a reddish color that blends with the coat color. Black, brown, light pink, or another color nose is an indication of another breed. Eyes and nails should also blend with it as well

I often get calls from people who think they've found an Italian Greyhound cross and would I take it, quite often they are wrong. This is the risk with assessment of many crossbreeds, one opinion won't agree with the next on which 2 breeds (or more in some cases) went into the dog.

Edited January 6, 2013 by dogmad

[Steve]

Bit of joke really that ANKC have the monopoly on the assessment when they are assessing dogs which are of a breed they say doesn't exist and they have a bias against cross bred dogs.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Steve

[Greytmate]

Bit of joke really that ANKC have the monopoly on the assessment when they are assessing dogs which are of a breed they say doesn't exist and they have a bias against cross bred dogs.

It is a joke. Like government sanctioned psuedoscience.

[melzawelza]

Bit of joke really that ANKC have the monopoly on the assessment when they are assessing dogs which are of a breed they say doesn't exist and they have a bias against cross bred dogs.

Bingo. Plus they also run a 'breed ID' course for council officers that they've managed to get nationally accredited, even though there is no science or validity behind visually breed assessing dogs.

[tdierikx]

Aren't Pitbull and AmStaff crosses allowed to be legally rehomed in NSW... I seem to remember something about only supposedly pure Pitbulls are restricted... and how many pure Pitties would we really see then?

T.

[mixeduppup]

I know Waverley council has a strict policy on pitty looking dogs.