Neuter Classes

[conztruct]

I.M.O. neuter classes should only be for already titled dogs that have been neutered, for any of a variety of reasons.

To suggest the L.R. is only for non show quality dogs is not only naive, it's ridiculous.

The limit register was raised so as all surviving whelps could added to breed statistics.

It only replaces the ''no papers'' variety from the old "with papers" "without papers" era.

It also gives "pet" buyers a pedigree & the option to upgrade to the main if the showing bug bites.

The L.R. is terrific innovation...I.M.O.

B.T.W.

Main register papers can be marked not for breeding, which only means puppies wont be registered of course, so the L.R. isn't the only option open for breeders to "protect their lines"

What reasons?

Any reason.

Age.

Illness.

Because the owner wants.

There is talk they should be eligible for the BoB lineup

Good grief.

Actually I'd rather see more veterans than neutered.

That doesn't really make sense for a conformation show. It doesn't matter why a neutered dog has been neutered they should be eligible to compete for the neutered class because that's the pre-requisite - the fact that it hasn't got a confirmation title to it's name has no bearing on the judges ability to assess it against the standard, why not let them do it then. If it's a poor exhibit of the breed they can non-award, if it's good enough it will get a neuter challenge and some points.

I would agree with you that they really shouldn't be lining up against the entire exhibits for BOB though at this point in time although if the concept of neuter really took off, they could certainly look at Best Entire, Best Neuter and then run off for BOB - I just don't think we've reached that point yet.

[rebelsquest]

Here we go - Qld now has neuter classes (well ones that count for points and a title). Make sure you ensure your dog is registered as neutered with the office though.

From Rob and DQ:

I would draw your attention to the article as printed in the January Council Notes.

NEUTER CHAMPION

All Members and Clubs are reminded that the Neuter Champion Title may be applied for through the Dogs Queensland Office. A complete article in regards to this will be published in the February Dog World but here is a brief report;

“A Neuter Championship Title is available. Championship points will be allocated to the best exhibit in each sex in the breed as per the normal championship points system.

Only dogs or bitches registered as a “neuter” on the Main Register are eligible to compete in the Neuter Classes. If you have a dog or bitch on the Main Register that is neutered, but their registration details have not been changed, you must do so before entering in a show.

To have your dogs details changed all the office needs is your original certificate of registration and pedigree along with the sterilisation certificate issued by your vet at the time of the operation.”

The CCC(Q) Rules are presently being reviewed and this article will appear in the February Dog World

Great news!!!

[fixer]

I.M.O. neuter classes should only be for already titled dogs that have been neutered, for any of a variety of reasons.

To suggest the L.R. is only for non show quality dogs is not only naive, it's ridiculous.

The limit register was raised so as all surviving whelps could added to breed statistics.

It only replaces the ''no papers'' variety from the old "with papers" "without papers" era.

It also gives "pet" buyers a pedigree & the option to upgrade to the main if the showing bug bites.

The L.R. is terrific innovation...I.M.O.

B.T.W.

Main register papers can be marked not for breeding, which only means puppies wont be registered of course, so the L.R. isn't the only option open for breeders to "protect their lines"

What reasons?

Any reason.

Age.

Illness.

Because the owner wants.

There is talk they should be eligible for the BoB lineup

Good grief.

Actually I'd rather see more veterans than neutered.

That doesn't really make sense for a conformation show. It doesn't matter why a neutered dog has been neutered they should be eligible to compete for the neutered class because that's the pre-requisite - the fact that it hasn't got a confirmation title to it's name has no bearing on the judges ability to assess it against the standard, why not let them do it then. If it's a poor exhibit of the breed they can non-award, if it's good enough it will get a neuter challenge and some points.

I would agree with you that they really shouldn't be lining up against the entire exhibits for BOB though at this point in time although if the concept of neuter really took off, they could certainly look at Best Entire, Best Neuter and then run off for BOB - I just don't think we've reached that point yet.

The thread asked the question "what do you think of it"

I said what I think.

If by some strange transaction neuters were to become eligble compete for B.O.B they would also have to compete against the entires in the class runoffs.

Edited January 8, 2013 by fixer

[rebelsquest]

I have always believed the purpose of DOL is to have discussions. If we all just stated our opinion, and no one questioned or discussed things, this place would be very boring and no one would learn anything.

[WreckitWhippet]

I.M.O. neuter classes should only be for already titled dogs that have been neutered, for any of a variety of reasons.

To suggest the L.R. is only for non show quality dogs is not only naive, it's ridiculous.

The limit register was raised so as all surviving whelps could added to breed statistics.

It only replaces the ''no papers'' variety from the old "with papers" "without papers" era.

It also gives "pet" buyers a pedigree & the option to upgrade to the main if the showing bug bites.

The L.R. is terrific innovation...I.M.O.

B.T.W.

Main register papers can be marked not for breeding, which only means puppies wont be registered of course, so the L.R. isn't the only option open for breeders to "protect their lines"

What reasons?

Any reason.

Age.

Illness.

Because the owner wants.

There is talk they should be eligible for the BoB lineup

Good grief.

Actually I'd rather see more veterans than neutered.

That doesn't really make sense for a conformation show. It doesn't matter why a neutered dog has been neutered they should be eligible to compete for the neutered class because that's the pre-requisite - the fact that it hasn't got a confirmation title to it's name has no bearing on the judges ability to assess it against the standard, why not let them do it then. If it's a poor exhibit of the breed they can non-award, if it's good enough it will get a neuter challenge and some points.

I would agree with you that they really shouldn't be lining up against the entire exhibits for BOB though at this point in time although if the concept of neuter really took off, they could certainly look at Best Entire, Best Neuter and then run off for BOB - I just don't think we've reached that point yet.

Would you like to include the neuters that I know were neutered because they only had one testicle ?

[dotdashdot]

I.M.O. neuter classes should only be for already titled dogs that have been neutered, for any of a variety of reasons.

To suggest the L.R. is only for non show quality dogs is not only naive, it's ridiculous.

The limit register was raised so as all surviving whelps could added to breed statistics.

It only replaces the ''no papers'' variety from the old "with papers" "without papers" era.

It also gives "pet" buyers a pedigree & the option to upgrade to the main if the showing bug bites.

The L.R. is terrific innovation...I.M.O.

B.T.W.

Main register papers can be marked not for breeding, which only means puppies wont be registered of course, so the L.R. isn't the only option open for breeders to "protect their lines"

But if neuter was only for already titled dogs, I and my dog would not be able to participate at all in shows (my meager entry fee is still money that clubs use, clubs gain more by having us there! and we have fun).

There is no reason why my dog should not be shown, other than the fact that she is missing a uterus. The reason for this is nothing to do with her, it was MY circumstances that dictated her being desexed.

As has been highlighted in my previous posts, I think it's important to see not just a dog or bitch in the showring, but siblings and other relatives as well!

[fixer]

I.M.O. neuter classes should only be for already titled dogs that have been neutered, for any of a variety of reasons.

To suggest the L.R. is only for non show quality dogs is not only naive, it's ridiculous.

The limit register was raised so as all surviving whelps could added to breed statistics.

It only replaces the ''no papers'' variety from the old "with papers" "without papers" era.

It also gives "pet" buyers a pedigree & the option to upgrade to the main if the showing bug bites.

The L.R. is terrific innovation...I.M.O.

B.T.W.

Main register papers can be marked not for breeding, which only means puppies wont be registered of course, so the L.R. isn't the only option open for breeders to "protect their lines"

But if neuter was only for already titled dogs, I and my dog would not be able to participate at all in shows (my meager entry fee is still money that clubs use, clubs gain more by having us there! and we have fun).

There is no reason why my dog should not be shown, other than the fact that she is missing a uterus. The reason for this is nothing to do with her, it was MY circumstances that dictated her being desexed.

As has been highlighted in my previous posts, I think it's important to see not just a dog or bitch in the showring, but siblings and other relatives as well!

You think you should be able to exhibit neutered dogs at sanctioned dog shows?

O.k, that's your perogative. That's your world. I'm not part of it.

I don't agree with the idea.

That's my perogative.

Maybe i'm just a relic of days gone by.

But the basic theory behind pure breed dog shows is the exhibition of prime breeding stock.

That's my world. You're not part of it.

& never the twain shall meet.

Neuter champions?

How about before neuter championship points are allocated a percentage of the total group entry has to be attained.

Say 10% for e.g.

200 group entry = 10 neuters min competing for 6 points for the group & the right to compete for best neuter in show

One point per dog in the B.N.I.S line up.

No challenge points to be issued.

Before you ask the question.

Yes.

I do believe points should be earned & not gifted.

Has any one ever seen a neuter non awarded?

I haven't.

But then I'm not interested enough to really take any notice.

[conztruct]

But the basic theory behind pure breed dog shows is the exhibition of prime breeding stock.

That's fair enough and your opinion is valid - that's why I did the poll and started the thread - to find out what people think. I would hope though that you're also open to discussing why and answering questions about your opinion.

I just wanted to pick up on what you said above and discuss a bit further, and I'm not saying anyone is right or wrong because I think it's subjective. If that is true and the theory is to exhibit prime breeding stock, do you think that titles should be stripped from dogs or bitches that then fail to produce or should they have to provide evidence of their fertility before being allowed to compete?

I know that a lot of people do use dog shows and have for many years to look at potential breeding stock, but I always thought the basic theory was to judge dogs against their breed standard and identify the exhibits that conform the best against those standards (in the opinion of the judge....). Certainly, identifying breeding stock is a by-product but I didn't think it was the main purpose?

[capanash]

We have exhibited two Std Poodles in Neuter class and gained their Neuter Champion titles. They are father and daughter, both titled, one being the only Std Poodle Grand Champion in Victoria for many tears. Both poodles are multiple class in Group and Specialty class in show winners. We consider them both to be good examples of the breed, but for various reasons decided not to continue breeding with their lines. Most judges have been very positive about neuter class and many have questioned why our dogs are desexed, even had an International judge asking the steward why the Neuter could not have been given BOB as she was better than the entire exhibits!

I think that by having Neuter class, it is a way of keeping good dogs in the ring and encouraging new exhibitors who do not want an entire dog, but still wish to show.

[conztruct]

I would agree with you that they really shouldn't be lining up against the entire exhibits for BOB though at this point in time although if the concept of neuter really took off, they could certainly look at Best Entire, Best Neuter and then run off for BOB - I just don't think we've reached that point yet.

Would you like to include the neuters that I know were neutered because they only had one testicle ?

I'd have to say yes on that - if they were neutered they wouldn't have any even if they had 4 beforehand. But you raise a very valid point and it's why I said that I think we would be a very long way off running off a neuter and entire for a BOB. Personally I think they should be kept separate but that's just a personal view.

[fixer]

We have exhibited two Std Poodles in Neuter class and gained their Neuter Champion titles. They are father and daughter, both titled, one being the only Std Poodle Grand Champion in Victoria for many tears. Both poodles are multiple class in Group and Specialty class in show winners. We consider them both to be good examples of the breed, but for various reasons decided not to continue breeding with their lines. Most judges have been very positive about neuter class and many have questioned why our dogs are desexed, even had an International judge asking the steward why the Neuter could not have been given BOB as she was better than the entire exhibits!

I think that by having Neuter class, it is a way of keeping good dogs in the ring and encouraging new exhibitors who do not want an entire dog, but still wish to show.

Agree.

The only people I know or am aware of who enter neuters are exhibitors who take the opportunity to give their old neutered conformation champions a run.

Dogs that have paid their dues in the real world of dog showing.

Still, showies are much more interested in the veterans s.s than they are the neuter scene.

The veterans actually draw the crowd & the applause & the admiration.

[capanash]

[quote

The only people I know or am aware of who enter neuters are exhibitors who take the opportunity to give their old neutered conformation champions a run.

Dogs that have paid their dues in the real world of dog showing.quote]

Not true, we have seen a lot of dogs shown in Neuter class that could not/have not titled in ordinary classes. I do think that the judges should be thinking very carefully about the neuters conforming to breed standards, it should not be seen as a pet class.

[Beth24]

I have a neuter Chinese Crested I started showing last year at 3yrs old. She is a chocolate which is accepted colouring but aren't often seen in Oz so likely she wouldn't do much winning due to being 'different' and as she would only produce more chocolates, she was removed from the breeding program.

I bought her as a pet as I had no interest in showing Group 1 dog at that time.

Anyway she has turned out to be a beautifully put together crested, naturally hairless and a little show pony - probably would have titled afterall. So after discussions with the breeder, we swapped her over onto neuter reg so she could be shown and I have had an absolute ball with her. She loves being able to be a part of it all too!

Hardest part has been teaching her to stand, being a pet she was taught to sit! Lol. Not easy going against titled dogs that are little statues with a hypo 3yr old new to the show scene but she's picked it up pretty quickly.

We just need more neuter shows at KCC and other VIC shows so I can show her more often :)

[SparkyTansy]

I help show two neuters who were rehomed by their breeders. It is part of our service as a breed club to encourage our members to get out there and do things with their dogs. Both these dogs were on Main register and the owner discussed with both breeders before entering a show. One of the dogs had a litter and was also titled in conformation as an entire... one was unfortunately returned to the breeder by someone who promised to show and was rehomed to our club member... both breeders are thrilled that their dogs are being showcased, especially the second dog, because although he never titled, he is certainly worthy of it, and he is sired by one of the top winning bitches in the country.

Judges have no idea which dog is titled already and which isn't. Both do their fair share of winning, but best of all the owner never would have entered this world of dog showing without our encouragement, and the pride and joy they get out of watching their dogs in the ring, and do some winning, is priceless... plus it might mean that the next time they select a dog, they might give showing a go.

[Sandra777]

I don't show a neuter, I don't even own one - but there is a bitch I bred out in neuter classes and doing OK for herself.

She is a good bitch, personally I think she would title in the entire ring however she doesn't have what we were looking for when we did the mating, isn't the piece in the jigsaw puzzle we wanted so there's no point in us breeding from her.

We did do some enquiring around and there was no one at that time we would have sold her to entire (trusting them to do the right thing) then what appeared to be the ideal home came up for a pet. She was spayed and almost immediately it all turned to s**t and she didn't go to that home.

Then along came a DOLer and it all worked out. I'm happy for her new owner to show her. I'm equally happy for her new owner not to show her - the bitch is in a fantastic home and that's the main thing.

Ironically at the same time we had a very successful show bitch (specialist Res CC winner out of Junior) who was spayed for health reasons. She was not staying entire end of story but I would have loved for her to continue being shown & had we been able to shown neuters in Qld at that time we would have kept her and shown her, she's in a pet home spoilt rotten. Fine by me too - she has a fantastic home and that's the main thing.

[OSoSwift]

I think that if there became enough numbers then there should be a neuter BOB etc, I wouldn't expect them to go up against the entires. At this point there are not enough numbers, but with time there will be :)

[mirawee]

Neuter champions?

How about before neuter championship points are allocated a percentage of the total group entry has to be attained.

Say 10% for e.g.

200 group entry = 10 neuters min competing for 6 points for the group & the right to compete for best neuter in show

One point per dog in the B.N.I.S line up.

No challenge points to be issued.

So are you proposing that to get points you can only get it at Group and GS level? How about we bring the same in for entire dogs? A lot of them title without competition as well.

At this point in time we have 4 Group 5 dogs in WA who regularly (ie pretty well every time it is offered) compete as Neuters. All have won Open Neuter in Group. Only 1 has ever gotten anything more than a 6 point challenge because we are all usually the only one of our breed showing and we don't get any extra points for winning ON in Group.

[rebelsquest]

We have exhibited two Std Poodles in Neuter class and gained their Neuter Champion titles. They are father and daughter, both titled, one being the only Std Poodle Grand Champion in Victoria for many tears. Both poodles are multiple class in Group and Specialty class in show winners. We consider them both to be good examples of the breed, but for various reasons decided not to continue breeding with their lines. Most judges have been very positive about neuter class and many have questioned why our dogs are desexed, even had an International judge asking the steward why the Neuter could not have been given BOB as she was better than the entire exhibits!

I think that by having Neuter class, it is a way of keeping good dogs in the ring and encouraging new exhibitors who do not want an entire dog, but still wish to show.

Agree.

The only people I know or am aware of who enter neuters are exhibitors who take the opportunity to give their old neutered conformation champions a run.

Dogs that have paid their dues in the real world of dog showing.

Still, showies are much more interested in the veterans s.s than they are the neuter scene.

The veterans actually draw the crowd & the applause & the admiration.

Disagree with you on all points fixer.

As dotdashdot is a perfect example of, there are people out there showing dogs in neuter that haven't got their Ch.

A lot of people are very supportive of neuter classes, including the majority, if not all, the judges I have shown a neuter under.

Many people still stick around for NIS, even though it is the last class to be judged, and I have heard some great cheers for NIS wins.

Edited January 9, 2013 by rebelsquest

[D & D]

Has any one ever seen a neuter non awarded?

Yes

I'm fortunate that I started showing in the NT. Neuter classes were offered long before any points were involved (and I thought it was a normal part of every dog show ).

I've also been to shows where the Neuter in Group line up was longer than the BIG line up :)

I've met quite a few people who started showing with their neuter, loved it, and now have entire showdogs.

[fixer]

I've also been to shows where the Neuter in Group line up was longer than the BIG line up :)

Was the neuter group entry longer than the group entry?

The way it could happen is if one or more entire breeds weren't represented.

Which I have seen.

Edited January 9, 2013 by fixer