Neuter Classes

[mirawee]

Nope I think they should be allowed to show, just saying that there would be dogs and bitches out there that are entire but have not or cannot have a litter or sire a litter. My dogs have never had a litter but I have every right to show them, they are both entire.

Just to note I didn't think you would the question was more to those people who think neuters shouldn't be shown because they can't be bred from ;)

[mirawee]

If I had this last year over, knowing what I know now, I would not have desexed my bitch. But I had to for several reasons but instead of our show career ending, we could keep having fun in the ring. Having a title at the end gives us a goal, I would not enter if it was sweepstakes.

My girl was not the pick of the litter, but was sold on mains with no restrictions. Rare, I know, but this breed is not the breeder's first breed and was more of a first dabble. However, I know my girl's sister (the pick of the litter) and could possibly direct anyone who likes my girl, to this breeder. My girl is a representation of this line in a different state where I haven't seen many dogs with very similar lines.

We all know that for the true determination of health in a line, we should look at aunties, uncles, etc not just the straight line of sires and dams.

Agreed :)

The dog world is one of the few I know who haven't welcomed showing sterilised animals :) Both the horse and cat world have big entries of sterilised animals :)

Edited January 6, 2013 by mirawee

[OSoSwift]

Yep and coming from the horse world initially I was a little suprised at the complete resistance to the mention of showing desexed dogs. I just don't see the issue. Many dogs that are shown are never bred from.

[Sandra777]

I wonder if neuter classes were open to LR then numbers might increase -

IMO Limit Reg is for dogs which are not show quality so no, I definitely wouldn't be a fan of that!

We have enough judges who honestly have little or no idea of the finer points of many breeds - filling neuter classes up with dogs which don't conform to the breed standard in major ways isn't going to help anyone.

Really? I am putting show quality dogs on LR because I don't want them bred from and I can't keep them all to show. Looking at some LR papers right now, I can't see anything written on them that even half way implies "all low grade dogs here."

IMO Limit Reg is for dogs which are not show quality

Did you miss that bit when you had to run off and find some LR papers?

Wow "all low grade dogs here" - nice. Just occasionally my 'non show quality' LR dogs manage to do other stuff like being therapy dogs, companion dogs for disabled kids & on the odd occasion they even manage to be just loved members of their family - nothing low grade about being a pet.

Other people use LR for other reasons (obviously you do) I use LR for pups not suitable for the show ring. "I don't want them bred from" means you get them sterilised before they leave your control in my world :)

[conztruct]

Just wanted to say thanks for participating in the survey and for your responses and discussion - it's been really good. If you know of anyone on DOL who you know has a strong opinion on this and maybe isn't aware of the survey, I'd love to get as many responses as possible. I'm thinking of maybe taking it to a wider group at shows or something like that.

The design I guess is to try and guage the level of support for the neuter classes and to try and glean some reasons why/why not.

A couple of comments I'd like to make in relation to the discussion:

1. I don't think limited register is necessarily an indication of the quality of the dog but more the breeders wishes in relation to them and that can be different for different breeders. Sometimes it could be because they don't think the dog is good enough to show or breed with, they may not think that the buyer has the expertise to adequately present the dog or it has been purchased as a pet so showing has never been a point in the discussion (if it was it is likely the breeder would probably offer some support and maybe recommend a different dog where another purpose is stated).

2. I don't think a dog being neutered is a reflection of it's quality - maybe more of the owners wishes. A neutered dog may be a very good example of it's breed against the standard (except for the entire bit....) while an entire dog may be a very poor example of it's breed against the standard and vice versa. I can understand the appeal of a neutered dog to someone who may like showing but has no intention of breeding. I know that many people view dog shows as a way of inspecting potential breeding stock but what is the core purpose really? I thought the main purpose of a conformation show was to identify the exhibits that are the best example of their breeds against their breed standard?

3. If the purpose of the neuter class was to encourage pet owners/social people to get involved in shows, I still don't think a conformation show is the right vehicle for it. As mentioned above, the purpose of it is to identify the best exhibit which is a competition usually including professionals. Don't get me wrong, I do enjoy showing as a social pursuit, but I do have competitive dogs and do everything I know how to prepare them for the show so they present well. I do however, see it as a way for people who might enjoy this competition, are only interested in showing and not breeding to be able to neuter their dogs before they normally would (they would normally keep them entire to compete).

I'm not saying I have answers to encourage a new group of participants but I just don't think neuter class is the way to do it (if that was the purpose originally - I'm not sure I've ever seen something offical from the ANKC about the purpose of introducing it - maybe someone can help with that?

[BJean]

IMO Limit Reg is for dogs which are not show quality

Did you miss that bit when you had to run off and find some LR papers?

Wow "all low grade dogs here" - nice. Just occasionally my 'non show quality' LR dogs manage to do other stuff like being therapy dogs, companion dogs for disabled kids & on the odd occasion they even manage to be just loved members of their family - nothing low grade about being a pet.

Other people use LR for other reasons (obviously you do) I use LR for pups not suitable for the show ring. "I don't want them bred from" means you get them sterilised before they leave your control in my world :)

Breeders are going to have to peer out of their comfort zone or consider other breeders' worlds, maybe even get over themselves a little, otherwise you will be showing against yourself.

Maybe this is okay for those in an older generation but for those who would like showing to be an activity option in their retirement age, no compromise is not good and will engender no future for the sport.

[BJean]

Re encouraging new participants: the very little Anatolian Club Of Vic, has slowly got multiple Anatolians going to shows. five are entered on January 27 in Vic. I don't think 5 ASDs have been exhibited in Vic since their arrival in 1985.

The Treasurer and Secretary of the Club are pet owners. Members take their pet to the show because the breeders said yes come along its fun and nutty, but it's a good day out for you and the dogs.

And so they came and are actually coming back.

The dogs are not there to demonstrate breeding stock, they are there because their owners will take them. And it is a social exercise of owners and their dog.

All new participants had NIL even negative interest of dog showing until dog showing was encouraged as a social activity, and they realised they were welcome as casual participants and saw the value of the hobby as a gathering of like minded persons and their dogs.

Rightly or wrongly, Identifying the Best Exhibit didn't and does not really come into it, we're just there to have a go and a day out with the dogs :)

Edited January 4, 2013 by lilli

[Waloes]

I regularly travel 1-2 hours interstate just to show my neuter bitch. I would prefer to enter her locally, but there is nothing on offer yet. I exhibit both neuter and entire dogs, and they all enjoy going to the show. I will take preference for a show with neuter class over a closer show without neuter class. so the local show misses out on my entire entries as well.

I am happy to keep the line between entire and non entire animals, but I, like a number of others are sure that there are a few neuters still being shown as entire. It is a shame that the area of "potential" reproductive qualities is considered a barrier to dogs being shown in the ring competitively.

There are a lot of well constructed neuters around, and some less than optimal entire dogs around, and I feel it is unjust to discount an animal simply because it is neutered, especially when it may well be more sound, and true to the breeding standard for the breed.

Interesting discussion topic, thank you for raising it.

[conztruct]

I regularly travel 1-2 hours interstate just to show my neuter bitch. I would prefer to enter her locally, but there is nothing on offer yet. I exhibit both neuter and entire dogs, and they all enjoy going to the show. I will take preference for a show with neuter class over a closer show without neuter class. so the local show misses out on my entire entries as well.

I am happy to keep the line between entire and non entire animals, but I, like a number of others are sure that there are a few neuters still being shown as entire. It is a shame that the area of "potential" reproductive qualities is considered a barrier to dogs being shown in the ring competitively.

There are a lot of well constructed neuters around, and some less than optimal entire dogs around, and I feel it is unjust to discount an animal simply because it is neutered, especially when it may well be more sound, and true to the breeding standard for the breed.

Interesting discussion topic, thank you for raising it.

As someone who does show neuter dogs and I see you are in Queensland - do you know if Dogs Qld has made any further statements about neuter classes than the one in 2010 that I linked earlier in the thread?

[oakway]

I regularly travel 1-2 hours interstate just to show my neuter bitch. I would prefer to enter her locally, but there is nothing on offer yet. I exhibit both neuter and entire dogs, and they all enjoy going to the show. I will take preference for a show with neuter class over a closer show without neuter class. so the local show misses out on my entire entries as well.

I am happy to keep the line between entire and non entire animals, but I, like a number of others are sure that there are a few neuters still being shown as entire. It is a shame that the area of "potential" reproductive qualities is considered a barrier to dogs being shown in the ring competitively.

There are a lot of well constructed neuters around, and some less than optimal entire dogs around, and I feel it is unjust to discount an animal simply because it is neutered, especially when it may well be more sound, and true to the breeding standard for the breed.

Interesting discussion topic, thank you for raising it.

As someone who does show neuter dogs and I see you are in Queensland - do you know if Dogs Qld has made any further statements about neuter classes than the one in 2010 that I linked earlier in the thread?

Neuter classes are now available with points towards their title but the classes are NOT mandatory at each show and it is up to the individual club if they offer them.

I rang the office and asked.

Without the classes being mandatory I feel not much has changed.

[rebelsquest]

Neuter classes aren't mandatory in Vic either.

[fixer]

I.M.O. neuter classes should only be for already titled dogs that have been neutered, for any of a variety of reasons.

To suggest the L.R. is only for non show quality dogs is not only naive, it's ridiculous.

The limit register was raised so as all surviving whelps could added to breed statistics.

It only replaces the ''no papers'' variety from the old "with papers" "without papers" era.

It also gives "pet" buyers a pedigree & the option to upgrade to the main if the showing bug bites.

The L.R. is terrific innovation...I.M.O.

B.T.W.

Main register papers can be marked not for breeding, which only means puppies wont be registered of course, so the L.R. isn't the only option open for breeders to "protect their lines"

[Sandra777]

B.T.W.

Main register papers can be marked not for breeding, which only means puppies wont be registered of course, so the L.R. isn't the only option open for breeders to "protect their lines"

Not an option in Queensland.

[Bilbo Baggins]

I.M.O. neuter classes should only be for already titled dogs that have been neutered, for any of a variety of reasons.

To suggest the L.R. is only for non show quality dogs is not only naive, it's ridiculous.

The limit register was raised so as all surviving whelps could added to breed statistics.

It only replaces the ''no papers'' variety from the old "with papers" "without papers" era.

It also gives "pet" buyers a pedigree & the option to upgrade to the main if the showing bug bites.

The L.R. is terrific innovation...I.M.O.

B.T.W.

Main register papers can be marked not for breeding, which only means puppies wont be registered of course, so the L.R. isn't the only option open for breeders to "protect their lines"

That is a really negative view.

I desexed my girl for her health she had done her bit for the next generation. She never titled entire because I was not showing in her younger years. By the time she had finished her maternal duties she was to old to consider in the entire arena.

Should I have just chucked her on the scrap heap. No she was going nowhere and as she enjoyed going out and strutting her stuff. I showed her. She has just claimed top Neuter Cavalier on DOL pointscore.

Yes some travel has been involved but those shows have also gained extra entries for the entire dogs that came along and BBJ and I have enjoyed discovering new locations.

Sadly my first neuter died 5 shows short of her title. She commenced her second show career as a 14 year old. Most judges could not believe her age when told. She still looked good until about 2 months before her death.

Wil was the ultimate showwoman despite having limited exposure a a youngest. She was a favourite with newbie Junior handlers as she would teach them what to do.

There is SUP CH. currently entering the neuter arena. I am sure the owner would prefer her to be still entire but pyo is a bitch. Livvy loves showing and I am sure the owner will get stick for showing her as a neuter.

[conztruct]

I.M.O. neuter classes should only be for already titled dogs that have been neutered, for any of a variety of reasons.

To suggest the L.R. is only for non show quality dogs is not only naive, it's ridiculous.

The limit register was raised so as all surviving whelps could added to breed statistics.

It only replaces the ''no papers'' variety from the old "with papers" "without papers" era.

It also gives "pet" buyers a pedigree & the option to upgrade to the main if the showing bug bites.

The L.R. is terrific innovation...I.M.O.

B.T.W.

Main register papers can be marked not for breeding, which only means puppies wont be registered of course, so the L.R. isn't the only option open for breeders to "protect their lines"

What reasons?

[conztruct]

Here we go - Qld now has neuter classes (well ones that count for points and a title). Make sure you ensure your dog is registered as neutered with the office though.

From Rob and DQ:

I would draw your attention to the article as printed in the January Council Notes.

NEUTER CHAMPION

All Members and Clubs are reminded that the Neuter Champion Title may be applied for through the Dogs Queensland Office. A complete article in regards to this will be published in the February Dog World but here is a brief report;

A Neuter Championship Title is available. Championship points will be allocated to the best exhibit in each sex in the breed as per the normal championship points system.

Only dogs or bitches registered as a neuter on the Main Register are eligible to compete in the Neuter Classes. If you have a dog or bitch on the Main Register that is neutered, but their registration details have not been changed, you must do so before entering in a show.

To have your dogs details changed all the office needs is your original certificate of registration and pedigree along with the sterilisation certificate issued by your vet at the time of the operation.

The CCC(Q) Rules are presently being reviewed and this article will appear in the February Dog World

Edited January 8, 2013 by conztruct

[Rebanne]

Here we go - Qld now has neuter classes (well ones that count for points and a title). Make sure you ensure your dog is registered as neutered with the office though.

From Rob and DQ:

I would draw your attention to the article as printed in the January Council Notes.

NEUTER CHAMPION

All Members and Clubs are reminded that the Neuter Champion Title may be applied for through the Dogs Queensland Office. A complete article in regards to this will be published in the February Dog World but here is a brief report;

“A Neuter Championship Title is available. Championship points will be allocated to the best exhibit in each sex in the breed as per the normal championship points system.

Only dogs or bitches registered as a “neuter” on the Main Register are eligible to compete in the Neuter Classes. If you have a dog or bitch on the Main Register that is neutered, but their registration details have not been changed, you must do so before entering in a show.

To have your dogs details changed all the office needs is your original certificate of registration and pedigree along with the sterilisation certificate issued by your vet at the time of the operation.”

The CCC(Q) Rules are presently being reviewed and this article will appear in the February Dog World

about time!

[Bilbo Baggins]

WoooooooooHooooooooooooooooo Qld.

[fixer]

I.M.O. neuter classes should only be for already titled dogs that have been neutered, for any of a variety of reasons.

To suggest the L.R. is only for non show quality dogs is not only naive, it's ridiculous.

The limit register was raised so as all surviving whelps could added to breed statistics.

It only replaces the ''no papers'' variety from the old "with papers" "without papers" era.

It also gives "pet" buyers a pedigree & the option to upgrade to the main if the showing bug bites.

The L.R. is terrific innovation...I.M.O.

B.T.W.

Main register papers can be marked not for breeding, which only means puppies wont be registered of course, so the L.R. isn't the only option open for breeders to "protect their lines"

What reasons?

Any reason.

Age.

Illness.

Because the owner wants.

There is talk they should be eligible for the BoB lineup

Good grief.

Actually I'd rather see more veterans than neutered.

[fixer]

B.T.W.

Main register papers can be marked not for breeding, which only means puppies wont be registered of course, so the L.R. isn't the only option open for breeders to "protect their lines"

Not an option in Queensland.

Aren't Qld dogs registered with the ANKC?

It's ANKC option.