Neuter Classes

[Rebanne]

I think the other reason is that people not in the dog world aren't aware that neuters can now be shown!

At this stage in WA there aren't enough shows offering neuter for me to really be pushing new people to join in either. Although the shows are increasing now so I might try :)

agree.

[SwaY]

I think the other reason is that people not in the dog world aren't aware that neuters can now be shown!

If the puppy people were in contact with the breeders and if the breeder thought the dog was good enough to be shown surely the breeder would mention it to the puppy person?

Not all puppy people want to show, so maybe they have been told but don't care for it?

[BJean]

I don't have a problem with Neuter classes; however I see very few new people showing, there tends to be titled dogs being shown by experienced owner/handler/breeders.

I thought it was bought in to encourage newbies to show, I don't see that happening.

I wonder if neuter classes were open to LR then numbers might increase - along with getting the message to people outside the show world that they can participate in a dog show I'd be happy to see more neutered dogs, just more dogs in general so I can see the finer details of different lines. I can still learn alot about the different kennels from seeing neuters.

To encourage owners outside of state CCs to show their dogs as neuters, the Main Registration requirement needs to be relaxed.

Here, LR means - sold as a pet, not for breeding.

Show dogs and breeding dogs are not one and the same. And generally show dogs (Central Asian and Anatolian) require a certain temperament and show exposure that a good proportion of the dogs dont have or will not have access to.

So the only way more pets would be shown from this sector is if pet owners could take their pup to the show on LR.

Edited January 3, 2013 by lilli

[BJean]

I know exhibitors take their showing very seriously which is fabulous and fascinating to watch, and I understand in some breeds show results are the main platform for assessment. However, the attitude that neuter exhibits need to be judged with the same level of scrutiny as the entire exhibits, is a retardant to the objective of encouraging new participants.

Immediately 'fun' and enjoyment is removed from the whole exercise. Pet owners are not going to obsess (in general) over as much detail as breeders. It should not matter if the neutered entry or 'neuter champion' would not win in the breeding class <maybe the neuter assessment criteria can be a combination of breed standard and showmanship / team effort etc >. All breeders know that there is variance in litters, so what does it matter if a pet owner's neuter exhibit's bite is not as it should be, or if its coat is mismarked or whatever else. Happy healthy dog, engaged owner, participating at a State CC event with their dog ... with council desexing requirements where else will new exhibitors and new breeders come from?

Plus there is kudos to the breeder of a neuter-pet-champion also. Immediately a potential puppy home sees the breeder of Champions and Neuter/Pet champions as a breeder who breeds dogs that 'regular people' own. ['regular people' because legislation and State CCs responses are increasing divides between pedigree breeders and 'dog lovers'.]

I don't intend to diminish the seriousness or importance of conformation showing, but dont forget about the social side and branching out aspects also. In its current format the neuter classes will never be significant because it is still tailored towards those already engaged, and not towards the intended target - non participating pedigree dog owners. Just as the Junior Handler class fosters future handlers, the neuter class needs to do this also.

Also, breed standards and breeder technicalities are boring to pet owners :) . Breed standards only become interesting when your interest in a breed increases. Shows are a great way to generate this interest. But State CCs need to get potential participants active and engaged with pedigree dogs and showing, and this will not happen and is not happening with the current format.

Edited January 3, 2013 by lilli

[conztruct]

I know exhibitors take their showing very seriously which is fabulous and fascinating to watch, and I understand in some breeds show results are the main platform for assessment. However, the attitude that neuter exhibits need to be judged with the same level of scrutiny as the entire exhibits, is a retardant to the objective of encouraging new participants. Immediately 'fun' and enjoyment is removed from the whole exercise. Pet owners are not going to obsess (in general) over as much detail as breeders and that is totally normal. It should not matter if the neutered entry or 'neuter champion' would not win in the breeding class <maybe the neuter assessment criteria can be a combination of breed standard and showmanship / team effort / presentation>

All breeders know that there is variance in litters so what does it matter if a pet owner's neuter exhibit's bite is not as it should be, or if its coat is mismarked or whatever else. Happy healthy dog, engaged owner, participating at a State CC event with their dog ... with council desexing requirements where else will new exhibitors and new breeders come from?

I don't intend to diminish the seriousness or importance of conformation showing, but dont forget about the social side and branching out aspects also. In its current format the neuter classes will never be significant because it is still tailored towards those already engaged, and not towards the intended target - a younger generation of non participating pedigree dog owners.

Also breed standards and breeder technicalities are boring to pet owners :) . Breed standards only become interesting when your interest in a breed increases. Shows are a great way to generate this interest. But State CCs need to get potential participants active and engaged with pedigree dogs and showing, and this will not happen and is not happening with the current format.

All of your points are totally valid and correct - but would it not suggest that maybe conformation showing (because that's what it's about) is not for pet owners with neutered dogs and they should be offered social days, etc.

I don't know what the answer is but if you're including neuter classes in a confirmation show the pet owner won't be getting any enjoyment when a judge non-awards an inferior specimen - I couldn't see a pet owner looking to participate getting much enjoyment out of that.

I do see where you're coming from but I think a greater participation of pet owners isn't going to be brought about by introducing neuter classes at shows. Maybe if it was like an open show parade or something where a knowledgable judge went over the dogs and told the person what was good about them and not so good and helped to educate them about their breed - that might work.

[BJean]

sorry I re- edited and had to top up water troughs and did not check the post again

All of your points are totally valid and correct - but would it not suggest that maybe conformation showing (because that's what it's about) is not for pet owners with neutered dogs and they should be offered social days, etc.

I don't know what the answer is but if you're including neuter classes in a confirmation show the pet owner won't be getting any enjoyment when a judge non-awards an inferior specimen - I couldn't see a pet owner looking to participate getting much enjoyment out of that.

this is what is wrong with neuter classes and the objective of encouraging future breeders and participants. Breeders assess a dog in parts, pet owners assess their dog on the whole with their heart. of course breeders do this also! but we are conditioned to seeing weaknesses and strengths. This is taught over time. That is why new participants also need to be given time to learn and see the why behind the what.

I do see where you're coming from but I think a greater participation of pet owners isn't going to be brought about by introducing neuter classes at shows. Maybe if it was like an open show parade or something where a knowledgable judge went over the dogs and told the person what was good about them and not so good and helped to educate them about their breed - that might work.

The assessment of the neuter class needs to accommodate pet owners, but like Junior Handlers classes, neuter classes need to be part of a championship show. Perhaps assessment based on conformation and showmanship, to enable the pet owner and their neuter exhibit some lassitude. Everyone enjoys receiving credit for their dog, and I think judges and breeders have the capacity to judge and regard a neuter breed class in the spirit in which it is intended - to encourage new participants.

If you have dog breeders and pet owners at shows together, you will work towards removing the perceived divide. I believe the neuter class has the potential to do this.

Edited January 3, 2013 by lilli

[mirawee]

I think the other reason is that people not in the dog world aren't aware that neuters can now be shown!

If the puppy people were in contact with the breeders and if the breeder thought the dog was good enough to be shown surely the breeder would mention it to the puppy person?

Not all puppy people want to show, so maybe they have been told but don't care for it?

In my experience most breeders don't even mention showing unless the puppy buyer asks them about it directly.

[Inevitablue]

What about all those people with their limit rego dogs attempting obedience, rally etc. There are plenty of people who go to obedience classes every week, who might only ever get to Novice level but they'd love to have a go at something formal. I bet many of those purebreds are on LR. Having a go at showing is something many of them could do.

I know the dogs were put on LR for a reason, but there is a wide variety of MR quality. I'd say most breeders use the LR more to stop their bloodlines being taken out of their hands.

If these people got hooked on showing then their next puppy purchase most likely will be a show quality, entire dog. Numbers then might start to incline then.

I think the same for breed clubs embracing and seeking membership from BYB buyers (who knew no better), building numbers, offering support, then I can bet where their next puppy purchase occurs. But that's another subject...

[WreckitWhippet]

Personally I think it's just a waste of time, the dogs aren't fertile and can't be bred from but whatever floats someone's boat I guess.

Because it can show how good a pedigree is?

What's the point of a "good" pedigree when they are no longer able to contribute to the gene pool ?

[Inevitablue]

Personally I think it's just a waste of time, the dogs aren't fertile and can't be bred from but whatever floats someone's boat I guess.

Because it can show how good a pedigree is?

What's the point of a "good" pedigree when they are no longer able to contribute to the gene pool ?

Because information can still be gathered such as consistent type from the sire. It would help to promote lines and families.

[WreckitWhippet]

Personally I think it's just a waste of time, the dogs aren't fertile and can't be bred from but whatever floats someone's boat I guess.

Because it can show how good a pedigree is?

What's the point of a "good" pedigree when they are no longer able to contribute to the gene pool ?

Because information can still be gathered such as consistent type from the sire. It would help to promote lines and families.

But we're not seeing anything new, just recycled champions

ETA: neuters should have been left as a sweep stakes.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Pav Lova

[Inevitablue]

Personally I think it's just a waste of time, the dogs aren't fertile and can't be bred from but whatever floats someone's boat I guess.

Because it can show how good a pedigree is?

What's the point of a "good" pedigree when they are no longer able to contribute to the gene pool ?

Because information can still be gathered such as consistent type from the sire. It would help to promote lines and families.

But we're not seeing anything new, just recycled champions

ETA: neuters should have been left as a sweep stakes.

True, at the moment but if the registration system was changed, say... add a registration category where a dog could be shown but have no progeny registered, then breeders would be more likely to give a newbie a start in the showring. It would be a slow process over a few years but something needs to be done to revive the sport.

[WreckitWhippet]

Personally I think it's just a waste of time, the dogs aren't fertile and can't be bred from but whatever floats someone's boat I guess.

Because it can show how good a pedigree is?

What's the point of a "good" pedigree when they are no longer able to contribute to the gene pool ?

Because information can still be gathered such as consistent type from the sire. It would help to promote lines and families.

But we're not seeing anything new, just recycled champions

ETA: neuters should have been left as a sweep stakes.

True, at the moment but if the registration system was changed, say... add a registration category where a dog could be shown but have no progeny registered, then breeders would be more likely to give a newbie a start in the showring. It would be a slow process over a few years but something needs to be done to revive the sport.

What would be the point of creating yet another "class" when in NSW and I believe VIC you can already endorse the papers " not for breeding"

[OSoSwift]

There is a dog who shows quite a bit I know of, does well is 6 and has never had a litter. It titled ages ago and I would have thought if the dog was good enough quality - which it certainly is - they would have had a litter if it was possible. It leads me to believe it is not possible. I may be wrong but that is what I think. It is still shown and with success.

I also can see where people are coming from when they say well why bother becasue they cannot be bred from. From the flip side though, you can show geldings and neuter cats. Many Catteries and studs are known on the strength of their neuters and geldings. If the quality of what they desex is top notch ten those they keep entire is going to be brillaint - well in general :D

Many geldings are spectacular, when asked why they were gelded? their brother, other colt was better. If I was looking for a great horse I look at the quality of their geldings. I think in time the neuter class can work just as well. See a stunning example of a breed that is male?? use his father, or other relative.

Edited January 3, 2013 by OSoSwift

[Inevitablue]

Personally I think it's just a waste of time, the dogs aren't fertile and can't be bred from but whatever floats someone's boat I guess.

Because it can show how good a pedigree is?

What's the point of a "good" pedigree when they are no longer able to contribute to the gene pool ?

Because information can still be gathered such as consistent type from the sire. It would help to promote lines and families.

But we're not seeing anything new, just recycled champions

ETA: neuters should have been left as a sweep stakes.

True, at the moment but if the registration system was changed, say... add a registration category where a dog could be shown but have no progeny registered, then breeders would be more likely to give a newbie a start in the showring. It would be a slow process over a few years but something needs to be done to revive the sport.

What would be the point of creating yet another "class" when in NSW and I believe VIC you can already endorse the papers " not for breeding"

Perfect then, more breeders should be encouraging people to get out there and show and offer those papers. People with their LR dogs who'd like to have a go be encouraged to ask their breeder to upgrade their dogs registrations, if the dog is within the standard.

[WreckitWhippet]

Personally I think it's just a waste of time, the dogs aren't fertile and can't be bred from but whatever floats someone's boat I guess.

Because it can show how good a pedigree is?

What's the point of a "good" pedigree when they are no longer able to contribute to the gene pool ?

Because information can still be gathered such as consistent type from the sire. It would help to promote lines and families.

But we're not seeing anything new, just recycled champions

ETA: neuters should have been left as a sweep stakes.

True, at the moment but if the registration system was changed, say... add a registration category where a dog could be shown but have no progeny registered, then breeders would be more likely to give a newbie a start in the showring. It would be a slow process over a few years but something needs to be done to revive the sport.

What would be the point of creating yet another "class" when in NSW and I believe VIC you can already endorse the papers " not for breeding"

Perfect then, more breeders should be encouraging people to get out there and show and offer those papers. People with their LR dogs who'd like to have a go be encouraged to ask their breeder to upgrade their dogs registrations, if the dog is within the standard.

I won;t be selling on mains and I won't be upgrading any dogs or bitches.

[mirawee]

There is a dog who shows quite a bit I know of, does well is 6 and has never had a litter. It titled ages ago and I would have thought if the dog was good enough quality - which it certainly is - they would have had a litter if it was possible. It leads me to believe it is not possible. I may be wrong but that is what I think. It is still shown and with success.

It could be that there are no suitable females to breed with - my 5yo male Kelpie has not sired a litter and probably won't as there is nothing to breed him too in WA (except maybe my young girl when older but at this stage probably not). However I know a multi-BIS winning Supreme Champion bitch who has never had a litter. She probably was fertile but hasn't been bred on vet advice following an illness when younger. Because she "can't" be bred does that mean she should not be allowed to show? Her litter sister has produced some very good dogs.

At the end of the day I don't care about the points for neuters. I would be happy to have a neuter sweepstake instead if the points weren't on offer. But neuter sweepstakes weren't offered! It isn't worth keeping many breeds in full show coat for just a couple of shows a year.

Edited January 3, 2013 by mirawee

[TessnSean]

I wonder if neuter classes were open to LR then numbers might increase -

IMO Limit Reg is for dogs which are not show quality so no, I definitely wouldn't be a fan of that!

We have enough judges who honestly have little or no idea of the finer points of many breeds - filling neuter classes up with dogs which don't conform to the breed standard in major ways isn't going to help anyone.

Really? I am putting show quality dogs on LR because I don't want them bred from and I can't keep them all to show. Looking at some LR papers right now, I can't see anything written on them that even half way implies "all low grade dogs here."

[OSoSwift]

There is a dog who shows quite a bit I know of, does well is 6 and has never had a litter. It titled ages ago and I would have thought if the dog was good enough quality - which it certainly is - they would have had a litter if it was possible. It leads me to believe it is not possible. I may be wrong but that is what I think. It is still shown and with success.

It could be that there are no suitable females to breed with - my 5yo male Kelpie has not sired a litter and probably won't as there is nothing to breed him too in WA (except maybe my young girl when older but at this stage probably not). However I know a multi-BIS winning Supreme Champion bitch who has never had a litter. She probably was fertile but hasn't been bred on vet advice following an illness when younger. Because she "can't" be bred does that mean she should not be allowed to show? Her litter sister has produced some very good dogs.

At the end of the day I don't care about the points for neuters. I would be happy to have a neuter sweepstake instead if the points weren't on offer. But neuter sweepstakes weren't offered! It isn't worth keeping many breeds in full show coat for just a couple of shows a year.

Nope I think they should be allowed to show, just saying that there would be dogs and bitches out there that are entire but have not or cannot have a litter or sire a litter. My dogs have never had a litter but I have every right to show them, they are both entire.

[dotdashdot]

If I had this last year over, knowing what I know now, I would not have desexed my bitch. But I had to for several reasons but instead of our show career ending, we could keep having fun in the ring. Having a title at the end gives us a goal, I would not enter if it was sweepstakes.

My girl was not the pick of the litter, but was sold on mains with no restrictions. Rare, I know, but this breed is not the breeder's first breed and was more of a first dabble. However, I know my girl's sister (the pick of the litter) and could possibly direct anyone who likes my girl, to this breeder. My girl is a representation of this line in a different state where I haven't seen many dogs with very similar lines.

We all know that for the true determination of health in a line, we should look at aunties, uncles, etc not just the straight line of sires and dams.