Neuter Classes

[conztruct]

Hi All,

This is my first go at a poll so you'll have to put up with my learning curve here.

I was really interested to know what people's views were in relation to neuter classes being offered at shows. You're more than welcome to comment why you feel the way you do but please, this isn't about fighting, just opinions.

A lot of clubs still do not offer these classes and to be honest, I think it might be a case of them considering that people aren't interested, so I guess I'm asking the question to obtain some facts. I've also added in locations and what type of shows you attend out of interst.

If you wouldn't mind taking the time to respond, I'd really appreciate it :)

Edited January 2, 2013 by conztruct

[Rebanne]

if a club offers it then the club should treat it the same as any other class.

I have been to shows where the prizes are not the same value as other classes and I have been to shows that have run short of certificates to give out or they have written it out after you win. Still waiting for my missing one and the one written out after we won doesn't have the judges signature on it. Suspect my missing one will be the same once it arrives. Luckily both were from Vic shows so I don't have to send them in. I was asked once why I didn't show my neuter as the card had been written out for her. So what, the card is 50 cents, they had my entry fee and they didn't have to give out the sash or prize. Think they came out on top.

[BJean]

I know owners who would show their desexed dog ...

maybe there could be neuter in group and neuter in show,

with the neuter class being 'open' ie 6 months and over.

I dont think the age divisions in the neuter class are necessary.

[Alyosha]

There is neuter in group and neuter in show at most of the shows around here - at all that offer the classes (which is the majority).

And yes, the class offered is open neuter - class 18 and 18a.

[mirawee]

We only have a few Clubs which offer Neuter classes in WA but they are always treated the same as the other classes Only 18/18a have been offered so far but that is fine as the majority of breeds only have 1 dog currently showing!

I just get annoyed with people who say neuters should be allowed to show because they are inferior The majority of dogs currently being shown in WA were show Champions before they were neutered and there are quite a few BIG and Class in Group winners as well as at least one Grand Champion! If people don't want their rehomed, retired show dogs shown in neuter because they don't think they are good enough then get them changed to the limited register :)

[dotdashdot]

At the moment, I only have a neuter to show! She is my learning curve and we have learnt a lot together. I've just filled out my entry for one show today, and hopefully another one tonight if hubby agrees to go away for 3 days! These will only be my 3rd and 4th shows.

Unfortunately I live in a regional area, and can't travel too far (my answer to the 3rd question In the poll reflect this, I would show in the city if I could get there!)

I wish my hometown club would do class 18, I was disappointed that they didn't last year. I think it would help encourage more "pet" owners maybe, introduce them gently to the dog world.

I've come across one gentlemen (who I got talking to at my work) that was a judge and he didn't agree with the neuter class at all. I just explained, as I my circumstances at the time prevented me from keeping my girl entire, neuter classes are the only way I can enjoy a show right now. He seemed to agree somewhat.

Even when I hopefully get my new pup, I want to keep showing Cleo. She enjoys the day out, and she's a good specimen! She may be heavily spotted but if you look past that her structure and movement are good.

We currently have 94 points to go!

[conztruct]

We only have a few Clubs which offer Neuter classes in WA but they are always treated the same as the other classes Only 18/18a have been offered so far but that is fine as the majority of breeds only have 1 dog currently showing!

I just get annoyed with people who say neuters should be allowed to show because they are inferior The majority of dogs currently being shown in WA were show Champions before they were neutered and there are quite a few BIG and Class in Group winners as well as at least one Grand Champion! If people don't want their rehomed, retired show dogs shown in neuter because they don't think they are good enough then get them changed to the limited register :)

I think that the inferiority of neuters thought process is a bit of a fallacy really. Just as an example to back what you're saying up, here is a link to the current leader of the neuter pointscore for bull terriers. This girl has had enormous specialty and all breeds show success, is a ROM (recognition of merit specialty award for bull terriers), a grand champion and now a neuter champion. Please point out what is inferior about that......

http://www.dogzonline.com.au/breeds/profile.asp?dog=35277

[Dogsfevr]

I personally wouldn't show a neuter as it affects my breeds coat & the coat is an important part of the breed standard,if i was to show a neuter it would have to be the same quality as i would show in the normal ring.

I don't have an issue with the class but i don't get concerned when it often gets refferred to as a pet class for owners to get started .

Neuter showed be no different to the main ring.The dogs compete against the same breed standard & the judge signs the neurer CC just like the main ring.

Lately more quality dogs have certainly been shown but when it started it was more like a veterans parade for dogs that really should have been left at home .

I am a big believer in no awarding which ever the ring may be & poor examples shouldn't be in either ring but i don't think the neuter class should be a considered a learners class to the main ring .

If people don't want their rehomed, retired show dogs shown in neuter because they don't think they are good enough then get them changed to the limited register :)

The breeder would have to sign it over to the other register anyway so without the breeder allowing it to be shown it wouldn't happen anyway & if a breeder has retired it then one would be asking why,if it wasn't good enough for the main ring why should it be shown as a neuter ???

When our guys are retired they are done so because there time has come & retirement is the best thing for them & if we do rehome then we wouldn't allow a new person to show a dog that we ourselves don't think is worthy enough ,if we won't show it why should someone else

[conztruct]

I personally wouldn't show a neuter as it affects my breeds coat & the coat is an important part of the breed standard,if i was to show a neuter it would have to be the same quality as i would show in the normal ring.

I don't have an issue with the class but i don't get concerned when it often gets refferred to as a pet class for owners to get started .

Neuter showed be no different to the main ring.The dogs compete against the same breed standard & the judge signs the neurer CC just like the main ring.

Lately more quality dogs have certainly been shown but when it started it was more like a veterans parade for dogs that really should have been left at home .

I am a big believer in no awarding which ever the ring may be & poor examples shouldn't be in either ring but i don't think the neuter class should be a considered a learners class to the main ring .

If people don't want their rehomed, retired show dogs shown in neuter because they don't think they are good enough then get them changed to the limited register :)

The breeder would have to sign it over to the other register anyway so without the breeder allowing it to be shown it wouldn't happen anyway & if a breeder has retired it then one would be asking why,if it wasn't good enough for the main ring why should it be shown as a neuter ???

When our guys are retired they are done so because there time has come & retirement is the best thing for them & if we do rehome then we wouldn't allow a new person to show a dog that we ourselves don't think is worthy enough ,if we won't show it why should someone else

I agree with you that dogs that aren't up to scratch shouldn't be awarded no matter what class they're in. I think sometimes some judges think they're doing someone a favour by awarding their dog but in all honestly there's a real danger that it creates an incorrect perception about the quality of the dog.

I'd see a neuter class as the same - if I had a neutered dog that was of show quality then I'd show it but I wouldn't take one in that wasn't up to it.

[Sayreovi]

I have a neuter and from now on will only enter a show that offers the neuter class :)

My other two dogs are titled and don't need to be shown anymore and showing isn't my type of sport anyway. My neuter still needs a fair few points so I enter all 3 just cause :)

He is an excellent type, easily got his champion title entire (not with just 6 point challenges either :p ), he adores showing and is in great condition!

Edited January 2, 2013 by tollersowned

[rebelsquest]

I certainly think Victoria is lagging behind with offering neuter classes, compared to states such as NSW, where most shows seem to have neuter class.

[mirawee]

The breeder would have to sign it over to the other register anyway so without the breeder allowing it to be shown it wouldn't happen anyway & if a breeder has retired it then one would be asking why,if it wasn't good enough for the main ring why should it be shown as a neuter ???

If it isn't good enough to be shown entire then I agree it shouldn't be shown as a neuter :) But there is one person in WA who argues that since they can be shown in neuter (because they weren't transferred into limited on retirement) then neuter classes should not be offered. Instead of not offering neuter classes it is up to breeders to keep their non-show quality dogs out of the ring by moving them to the limited register (or not transferring the ownership over). Although this isn't a neuter specific problem as there are entire dogs showing who should be on the limited register as well.

In my breed you can't really tell a neuter coat from an entire coat except that neutered bitches have so much more undercoat than their entire counterparts :laugh:

I do think that in many breeds getting a neuter to show is possibly an easier alternative for a first show dog as many of the top breeders won't sell their dogs to people who want to keep them entire. So rather than getting an inferior dog you have to keep entire you can (hopefully) get a good quality dog who is shown sterilised :) Maybe the breeder safeguards themselves by keeping the dog in their name until after the pup is sterilised?

[Sandra777]

I certainly think Victoria is lagging behind with offering neuter classes, compared to states such as NSW, where most shows seem to have neuter class.

Try Qld where we don't even acknowledge the title

[rebelsquest]

I certainly think Victoria is lagging behind with offering neuter classes, compared to states such as NSW, where most shows seem to have neuter class.

Try Qld where we don't even acknowledge the title

ETA - so neuter classes are offered, but you can't get your neuter title?

Edited January 2, 2013 by rebelsquest

[conztruct]

I certainly think Victoria is lagging behind with offering neuter classes, compared to states such as NSW, where most shows seem to have neuter class.

Try Qld where we don't even acknowledge the title

ETA - so neuter classes are offered, but you can't get your neuter title?

I've actually asked DQ to provide an updated ruling on this as the last one was in 2010 and the basis of the ruling was that neuter title and points was not compatible with the organisations objects (?).

If however, you read the DQ rules it defines challenge certificate means a certificate awarded at a championship show and having a points value as prescribed by the ANKC. As the rules offer neuter classes and neuter titles and points are prescribed by the ANKC, the DQ rules and what they have said about not offering neuter titles and points are inconsistent so they either need to provide a ruling in favour of neuter or against it and then amend the rules to reflect that position.

Edited January 2, 2013 by conztruct

[rajacadoo]

Mmmmmm cant answer the survey as Tas wasn't included in the states column ...

[mirawee]

I certainly think Victoria is lagging behind with offering neuter classes, compared to states such as NSW, where most shows seem to have neuter class.

Try Qld where we don't even acknowledge the title

ETA - so neuter classes are offered, but you can't get your neuter title?

They don't offer the classes in Qld as far as I am aware. Or at least we recently had a judge from Qld and had to quickly explain neuter class points to him (while he was judging my dog) :laugh: He did say it was a good idea though ;)

[conztruct]

Mmmmmm cant answer the survey as Tas wasn't included in the states column ...

Ooops - my bad - TAS is now in! :)

[conztruct]

Here is the thread where DQ first outlawed the neuter classes as being inconsistent with their objects.

http://www.dolforums.com.au/topic/192106-no-neuter-ch-in-qld/

I guess the thing for me is that they only said it was inconsistent and didn't really go into much detail why. And I suspect that's probably because there's a fairly "thin" justification for it, but that's just my opinion.

In talking to people locally about neuter mostly they think nobody is really that interested and some do say they don't agree with it because they feel it goes against the purpose of shows which they believe is supposed to be about breeding stock. I can understand this view and this is probably how it was in the past and shows were patronised in much greater numbers. Unfortunately, this isn't the case now and our society and laws have changed significantly to really push neutering dogs, so I see the introduction of these classes not so much as replacing or taking away from the "breeding stock" side of things, but a way of increasing participation based on the way things are now - some sort of change is required because what we always used to do is no longer drawing the numbers - I might be wrong though.

[Airedaler]

The only dogs I have are neuters but they are also Aust. Champs so i do not see the point of showing to obtain a Neuter Ch when they already have their titles.

With my breed there is also a significient amount of grooming to be done and in some cases coats are changed with neutering whch makes the grooming harder than normal.