What Happened In 2008/2009/2010

[asal]

Something else I learned about someone who bought a pup from McDougal. on the main they were getting a better pup than what the same breeders were selling to their fellow Australian's.

Another case of "why is it so?"

The vet who did the checking was not only extrememly good, was also extremley through, no puppy passed if it had even a hint of a heart mumour, a hint of patella, eye or breathing problems and even in breeds like shih tzu, even the tiniest hernia meant 'out the door.'

How many Australians never knew one to three henia's were not acceptable?

Go to any Australian show and watch,.........see how many Shih Tzu and Cavalier's have all three along with their Aust Champion title?

Its not listed as a disqualifing fault in just about all breeds.

Yet if you bought a McDougal pup in Hawai.....not a single one could be found with any.

Seemed to me the people of Hawaii, were getting a much better deal than the australian public from the very same breeders

[Steve]

Yes its all part of the answer.

I remember when it was at its peak many breeders were sending out hundreds to this outlet including those who were big names in the CC world and still are. Many had several multiple breeds with entire litters going out and any that didnt make the grade due to a heart murmur umbilical hernia etc were dropped off at the PIAA pet shop around Penrith on the way home. Mc Dougal did tick many of the boxes, only the healthiest puppies were accepted, they all had papers, owners were usually lined up before the puppies ever left this country , the breeder was able to be contacted ,the breeder received feedback from the new owners,puppies sold for about a hundred to two hundred less than the going price in Australia but it meant breeders didnt have to screen or be face to face with the buyers. It had the tick of approval from the CCs with big ads being run in the CC journals and the CCs made bucket loads of money from export certificates and was and still is classified ethical via the code of ethics.

I was at a function over the new years period and this subject came up with a person I met there who was a CC registered "breeder" who breeds 42 different breeds. She was of the opinion that there are just as many if not more puppies being bred by CC members now as there ever have been but they are not being registered as they had to be when McDougal was the buyer and as she spoke about the loop holes and the markets available which I had never considered I probably would agree with her.

[Tapua]

Yes there are loopholes and I understand that if a person wants to get a MR OR LR ANKC dog they now have to wait till the pup is 6 months before it can be exported. However speak to any pet transport company and they will tell you as long as it is over 12 weeks old the pup can be transported the buyers just get the papers for the pup when it is over 6 months. Some airlines wont fly dogs uunder 6 months - many still do though.

Edited January 2, 2013 by Tapua

[Sheridan]

asal, there is only one ethical way for a breeder not to deal with Joe Public and that one way isn't to sell puppies to someone who stocks pet shops in the USA. The one way is not to be a breeder.

[Steve]

Yes there are loopholes and I understand that if a person wants to get a MR OR LR ANKC dog they now have to wait till the pup is 6 months before it can be exported. However speak to any pet transport company and they will tell you as long as it is over 12 weeks old the pup can be transported the buyers just get the papers for the pup when it is over 6 months. Some airlines wont fly dogs uunder 6 months - many still do though.

If you sell a puppy at 8 weeks then that puppy can be exported by its new owner the next day. Which is how Transpet operated. The breeder was no longer the owner at time of export - they just had to wait for the papers to be put in after 12 weeks. If you export a pup without an export certificate no one ever knows it was exported. If you sell a pup and the new owner exports it there isn't anything stopping it flying at 8 weeks as long as the new owners isn't an ANKC member.

Edited January 3, 2013 by Steve

[asal]

asal, there is only one ethical way for a breeder not to deal with Joe Public and that one way isn't to sell puppies to someone who stocks pet shops in the USA. The one way is not to be a breeder.

Thank you for your unasked for opinon of what rates as ethical and what doesnt.

It is people like you who make judgements like that, who are the reason the dog world has such a shit reputation.

It wasnt joe public who made me the nit I now am, it was precious self proclaimed ethical's like you. If what you just said is not being judgemental of someone who you havent met, does not have the breed you adore. How come you have the hide in previous comments from your self that my problems stemmed solely from fellow breeders of my own breeds?

AS Steve said, Mcdougals was advertised by the CC's, sanctioned by the CC's BUT my, you have been elected by WHO to be judge and jury and executioner, over and above the CC's at the time?

You are the problem.

I long ago came to the conclusion, that the show mentality is the epitamy of unethical.

a "breeder" is the custodian of the animals they have not only for today, but the future.

You would not have them at all if previous "breeders" had not been prepared to not only breed puppies for themselves, but passed them onto newbies to continue them into the future.

That future if you honestly cared for the animals and the breed , would have been selected not just for outward appearance, they would only use and pass on the physically and mentally soundest of the progeny, including excellent maternal instincts and ability to reproduce without cesearians except for the occastional malpresentation.

Breeds evolved and should continue to be able to survive without a vet needing to surgically deliver litters because the mother is incapable of normal birth.

What you breed is the legacy for the future. To knowingly continue to produce hernia riddled individuals knowing any human with the same hernia's is in constant discomfort and potentially life threatening, yet a SHOW breeder does just that. If the best SHOW shapepuppy is hernia ridden there it will be collecting challenges while its less perfect show shape siblings with not a hernia to be found, dissappear for good, not only from the show scene but its the hernia show shape that produces the next generation.

Just because the standard does not say hernias are a disqualification doesnt make using them for breeding ETHICAL.

IF the showies desperate for their precious Champion title simply showed their hernia'd pretties but bred from the sound unhernia siblings, we wouldnt be seeing breeds so riddled with hernia's their breeders havent a hope in hades of getting the majority of their pups past an export check?

The majority of people who want a Cavalier King Charles, Pug, Shih Tzu, forget all the other breeds my vet named will be waiting a long time if they want a hernia free pup from most of the leading lights of these breeds.

As one lady who was described to me as the bastion of her breed, contributing more to her breed in this country than any other. When I went looking for a pup for my sister who wanted a Cavalier King Charles instead of one of my Chihuahua's (how dare she) but being a good sister I went on the hunt on her behalf for a good quality pup. 6 months later I was still searching for a breeder with hernia free pups. This Bastion of the breed explained to me I was wasting my time, as in her opinion "within 12 years I doubt there will be any hernia free cavaliers, you cant use second best, if the best has the hernia's the breed will go backwards if they are not used ".

This mentally is to me the height of UNETHICAL.

THIS thinking is the putting the ribbon before the futre of the breed as a whole.

She is the reason I decided to prove you can breed hernia free Cavaliers. It took almost a year to discover a breeder with hernia free over ten year old dogs.

Another discovery I made in research of the breed. Here we have a toy breed? (for the newbie and the showie) a sound toy breed has double the normal lifespan of the larger breeds. 13 to 17 tends to be the breed average, Ive known 20 yr old toy breeds.

So learning the average for a cavalier was 8 frequently less. the other box I had included for ticking was had dogs ten or over.

At the time I had never heard of Mitral Valve. Thanks to buying the origional pups from a breeder with not only no hernia's all three pups lived happily mitral valve free to 15 years.

my sister was complemented continually on what a lovely dog she had AND she had her for almost double the average span of the breed.

Ditto for mine.

Their descendants are also averaging 12 to 15 like the original breeders dogs.

Although my priority was soundness before show looks.

The reasoning behind that being you can always select for the prettiest from the soundest after you h have the sound right.

That people like yourself consider you can sit in judgment and lable me what YOU BELIEVE is to me the height of ego.

I do not have to do as you say.

Once upon a time there was something called FREEDOM OF SPEECH. FREEDOM OF CHOICE.

Thanks to the likes of you that is in the process of being eliminated.

If I want a sound healty animal the likes of that Bastion of the breed, and perhaps? you? considering some of your priorities? would the last place to look

Edited January 3, 2013 by asal

[asal]

Hmm

just spotted this

"

Unfortunately they don't have the market cornered on stupidity and misinformation, plenty of Aussies and everyone else capable of swallowing compete garbage. On my FB just this morning one of my 'friends' had shared some crap about refugees v pensioners assistance, it had been debunked as garbage ages ago but still believed by some obviously"

"I believe Facebook should have an IQ test as entry....that would eliminate millions.................. "

somehow I suspect the results would be similar if the same was introuced to the requirements to become a breeder ?

Sadly for your preconceptions of me, I qualify for Mensa Australia, do you?

http://www.mensa.org.au/

I noticed dearest Sheridan, your concern as to if I ticked the "have you mentored newbies"

box. How devestating for you that was a tick.

But obviously by your last post I quoted there are lots more boxes you havnt the required tick in?

the "Have you bred Champions" box gets ticks too incidently

Edited January 3, 2013 by asal

[tdierikx]

Sadly for your preconceptions of me, I qualify for Mensa Australia, do you?

Yep... got an invite to join them when I was 12 actually...

Funnily enough, having a high IQ doesn't always translate to having any common sense... *grin*

I'd say that a good number of people participating in this thread have a good smattering of both actually.

T.

[asal]

Sadly for your preconceptions of me, I qualify for Mensa Australia, do you?

Yep... got an invite to join them when I was 12 actually...

Funnily enough, having a high IQ doesn't always translate to having any common sense... *grin*

I'd say that a good number of people participating in this thread have a good smattering of both actually.

T.

Hope so. The dogs need some sane owners.

yep, never chucked that in ever before, for exactly your reason.

and some can be sooooooooo snotty because they are. My poor cousin nearly fainted when the results came back n I was in his precious league, laughed till the tears ran that day

You dont have to be to achieve what you really want either, my brother nearly soffocated before he was born, the doctors proclaimed him dead but my mum wouldnt stop trying to get him breathing.

he did suffer damage, had incredible difficulty learning what I remembered just by reading once.

My mum was told it would be cruel to even let him finish high school, let alone encourage him Study to be an accountant which was his wish.

He spent 20 hours studying to remember what took me seconds, but he did it.....

Determination and motivation, is just as important

Edited January 3, 2013 by asal

[Steve]

asal, there is only one ethical way for a breeder not to deal with Joe Public and that one way isn't to sell puppies to someone who stocks pet shops in the USA. The one way is not to be a breeder.

Gets a bit muddy doesnt it - when the controlling body is responsible for designing and maintaining and policing the code of ethics says it's completely ethical for someone to sell puppies to an overseas pet shop or an Australian pet shop as long as they are PIAA that its O.K. to sell to agents as long as they are PIAA - and this is the criteria which was used for someone to determine whether they wanted to join or remain a member or not -that they determined that they had the same philosophies and they fitted what was being asked of them no amount of personal opinion or change in how society perceive it all the fact remains that according to the group that they belong to it is completely ethical.

At the end of the day the only ones any breeder has to answer to regarding their ethics is the group they belong to - in Asal's case it was Dogs NSW .May not fit with some other people's idea of what is ethical but its not possible for everyone to see things the same way anyway as long as that clause is in the CC codes those things are considered ethical by those standards for their members - the only ones that count.

[asal]

I did not stop selling them my puppies because I thought they were not doing the right by the pups.

I stopped because I realised the best pups were going overseas, instead of to keep the family going in this country.

I also realised if I wanted the best of some australian lines, the only way was to make a trip to hawaii and buy one bred by the ETHICAL'S that wont allow another Australian access to their dogs.. the dead end breeders as I think of them.

Half wanted to do it. Just the thought of the resulting fury was very heart warming. But the repercussions would be weeks of abusive calls to the ETHICALS first line of defence.....

The Honourable Richard Amery, spelled that out so succinctly in that amazing letter

dont need to spell that one surely?

[Sheridan]

asal, there is only one ethical way for a breeder not to deal with Joe Public and that one way isn't to sell puppies to someone who stocks pet shops in the USA. The one way is not to be a breeder.

Gets a bit muddy doesnt it - when the controlling body is responsible for designing and maintaining and policing the code of ethics says it's completely ethical for someone to sell puppies to an overseas pet shop or an Australian pet shop as long as they are PIAA that its O.K. to sell to agents as long as they are PIAA - and this is the criteria which was used for someone to determine whether they wanted to join or remain a member or not -that they determined that they had the same philosophies and they fitted what was being asked of them no amount of personal opinion or change in how society perceive it all the fact remains that according to the group that they belong to it is completely ethical.

At the end of the day the only ones any breeder has to answer to regarding their ethics is the group they belong to - in Asal's case it was Dogs NSW .May not fit with some other people's idea of what is ethical but its not possible for everyone to see things the same way anyway as long as that clause is in the CC codes those things are considered ethical by those standards for their members - the only ones that count.

Steve, i don't think it's at all muddy and unless you have removed the membership criteria of not selling to pet shops from your MDBA criteria then neither do you.

[asal]

asal, there is only one ethical way for a breeder not to deal with Joe Public and that one way isn't to sell puppies to someone who stocks pet shops in the USA. The one way is not to be a breeder.

Gets a bit muddy doesnt it - when the controlling body is responsible for designing and maintaining and policing the code of ethics says it's completely ethical for someone to sell puppies to an overseas pet shop or an Australian pet shop as long as they are PIAA that its O.K. to sell to agents as long as they are PIAA - and this is the criteria which was used for someone to determine whether they wanted to join or remain a member or not -that they determined that they had the same philosophies and they fitted what was being asked of them no amount of personal opinion or change in how society perceive it all the fact remains that according to the group that they belong to it is completely ethical.

At the end of the day the only ones any breeder has to answer to regarding their ethics is the group they belong to - in Asal's case it was Dogs NSW .May not fit with some other people's idea of what is ethical but its not possible for everyone to see things the same way anyway as long as that clause is in the CC codes those things are considered ethical by those standards for their members - the only ones that count.

Steve, i don't think it's at all muddy and unless you have removed the membership criteria of not selling to pet shops from your MDBA criteria then neither do you.

except my dear who thinks they know all. See all and can judge all.

I dont think MDBA was even in existance when what I was talking about was going on, besides the fact Ive been a member of RNSWCC SINCE 1978 AND SHOCKING AS you may find it the rules were exactly as stated by Steve.

I did nothing unethical by the rules I was advised not only by the breed club but also the chairman and committee.

Tho who knows all, see's and and judges all and who I gather firmly belives should be bowed down too, ho great one.

Are you the past or present Director of Dogs NSW?

In which case why put one rule in writing, then slander those who dont know thers another "secret.........only the ETHICAL KNOW unwritten rules"

lord high hyprocrite

[rebelsquest]

Gosh, this thread deteriorated into a mud slinging match quickly

[asal]

Gosh, this thread deteriorated into a mud slinging match quickly

Ive had being nice to this lot who decide to destroy the messenger instead of debating the topic.

[SchnauzerMax]

Gosh, this thread deteriorated into a mud slinging match quickly

Yeah :eek:

[Roova]

Could it also be that the price for some purebred dogs became more expensive and more breeders started selling puppies on limited register or desexed?

Edited to add should have read last few pages of posts instead of first few. I'm way out of my league here!

Edited January 3, 2013 by Roova

[Steve]

Could it also be that the price for some purebred dogs became more expensive and more breeders started selling puppies on limited register or desexed?

I dont think that this would have shown as a spike - purebred dogs havent become more expensive since 09 in fact some are less expensive and the limited register has been in existence for a very long time. Ive no doubt these things have impacted over time but in these years numbers went up and then dropped again quickly . To be honest the only thing that does make much sense why it went up and then down is the Mcdougal thing as it was at this time that they were running ads and more were being purchased by the pet store.

[Roova]

I was thinking more of breeds like Frenchies which I believe have had a $1000+ increase over that time and don't seem to be sold on main much. Are there many breeds which cost less now than 2009?

[asal]

Could it also be that the price for some purebred dogs became more expensive and more breeders started selling puppies on limited register or desexed?

I dont think that this would have shown as a spike - purebred dogs havent become more expensive since 09 in fact some are less expensive and the limited register has been in existence for a very long time. Ive no doubt these things have impacted over time but in these years numbers went up and then dropped again quickly . To be honest the only thing that does make much sense why it went up and then down is the Mcdougal thing as it was at this time that they were running ads and more were being purchased by the pet store.

In my mind just about every thing doggy is either pre string or post string and that was jan 2000

Never took notice of any McDougal, advertising post 2000, was essentialy shut down from that date for something like 5 years min anyway. So my learning of their activities and those who sold to them was early 90's I think?

Edited January 3, 2013 by asal