Maremmas In Show.

[WreckitWhippet]

Clearly the custodians need to work out what is in the best interests of preserving their breed and maintaining it's integrity and working ability.

Not every dog or breed is suited to every job or activity, that is why we have "breeds" and there's nothing wrong with that. I personally don't think the Maremma belongs in the show ring, it doesn't mean I'm calling for a ban on it.

If you've got a great working dog and it can multi task and star in the show ring, than great, if not, then it needs to be left at home. You can't blame the judges who approach perhaps upto 200 dogs in a day, for the short comings of your dog or even worse an other wise great working dog, that you've chosen to place in an environment for which it's not suited.

I can't expect to take my Whippet an participate in the Iditarod or that my Stafford will do well in an earth dog trial or a Neo will successfully complete an agility run, within the standard rules and regs for that activity, nor can I expect that the rules and regs be changed to accommodate it.

ETA: Why can't owners and breeders accept their breed has limitations and this applies to every breed.

Just because a breed has ANKC recognition, doesn't make it suitable for every ANKC sanctioned event, nor does it mean it's not worthy of recognition. The ANKC to put it simply is nothing more than a "registry" for pedigree dogs, being on that register doesn't mean you have to participate in showing or that a breed is suitable to be shown.

Edited March 16, 2013 by WreckitWhippet

[Rebanne]

just curious Tralee, have you been overseas and seen these Maremma's (USA, British, Italian), with your own eyes or are you relying on internet talk and interpertation?

[Salukifan]

There is at least one breed whose standard states that it is never to be handled by the judge. That breed is not in this country - it's banned. I don't lose any sleep about that.

If the temperament of the Maremma is such that it needs to be approached carefully then it is the breed standard that needs to be changed to indicate that. However if an individual dog cannot handle a judge in a hat, in sunglasses or approaching in a particular manner, then I can only suggest that that dog be treated as other dogs of other breeds who have this issue are and either given further socialisation/training or simply not shown at all.

You don't need the dog to greet the judge with joy. That would actually be a fault in quite a few breeds. You simply need it to stand solidly and not behave aggressively to the judge's handling IN THE PRESENCE OF ITS HANDLER. Is it really that big an ask?

The show ring should not and cannot be used as the sole arbiter as to what constitutes merit in a breed. It's a sport, you train and participate in the sport and if you or your dog do not do well within the rules of the sport then my view is don't compete.

If the dog cannot tolerate the handling of a judge while being exhibited, then don't show it. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the dog, its simply not a show dog.

[zoiboy]

If the temperament of the Maremma is such that it needs to be approached carefully then it is the breed standard that needs to be changed to indicate that. However if an individual dog cannot handle a judge in a hat, in sunglasses or approaching in a particular manner, then I can only suggest that that dog be treated as other dogs of other breeds who have this issue are and either given further socialisation/training or simply not shown at all.

You don't need the dog to greet the judge with joy. That would actually be a fault in quite a few breeds. You simply need it to stand solidly and not behave aggressively to the judge's handling IN THE PRESENCE OF ITS HANDLER. Is it really that big an ask?

The show ring should not and cannot be used as the sole arbiter as to what constitutes merit in a breed. It's a sport, you train and participate in the sport and if you or your dog do not do well within the rules of the sport then my view is don't compete.

If the dog cannot tolerate the handling of a judge while being exhibited, then don't show it. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the dog, its simply not a show dog.

HERE HERE !! This is what I have been attempting to say all along...........

I have a few that have no interest in even humoring my wish for them to be show dogs. Does not mean they are lesser quality, just mean's they are not fond of shows. If I like em enough and they have good hip, elbow, eye and thyriod

scores then I just may use them to breed and will definatly find them a job.

[WreckitWhippet]

When it comes to selecting suitable breeding stock it is VERY important to discriminate and even 'condemn'. I am thinking the Italians would be the first to say it too?

True, but that's not the issue.

An exhibitor is going to take a suitable dog to present at a Show.

In the past, a small number of judges have not, IMO, been fair in their comportment around my dogs.

Some have been blatantly deliberate and others ignorantly innocent.

But neither should be excusable.

It has happened in the past and is more than likely to happen in the future.

It happened at Crufts for cries sakes.

I would want my dogs to be dogs first, companions second, show dogs third and breeders last of all.

I simply do not want the order changed for the convenience of some overbearing Judge, Dog Club or Canine Council.

Perhaps there's your problem. You might need a rethink on that list and perhaps looking at your dogs as being suitable as potential breeders ( type, temperament, structure and soundness ), then what the dogs were actually bred for and can they do the job. They may or may not make a great companion and given the breed history it would be rather arse about to put "companion" anywhere near the top of the list, along with exhibition.

You can blame judges all you like, but you are the one who has ultimately put your dog in an environmemt that it's not typically suited for.

[Salukifan]

If the temperament of the Maremma is such that it needs to be approached carefully then it is the breed standard that needs to be changed to indicate that. However if an individual dog cannot handle a judge in a hat, in sunglasses or approaching in a particular manner, then I can only suggest that that dog be treated as other dogs of other breeds who have this issue are and either given further socialisation/training or simply not shown at all.

You don't need the dog to greet the judge with joy. That would actually be a fault in quite a few breeds. You simply need it to stand solidly and not behave aggressively to the judge's handling IN THE PRESENCE OF ITS HANDLER. Is it really that big an ask?

The show ring should not and cannot be used as the sole arbiter as to what constitutes merit in a breed. It's a sport, you train and participate in the sport and if you or your dog do not do well within the rules of the sport then my view is don't compete.

If the dog cannot tolerate the handling of a judge while being exhibited, then don't show it. Doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the dog, its simply not a show dog.

HERE HERE !! This is what I have been attempting to say all along...........

I have a few that have no interest in even humoring my wish for them to be show dogs. Does not mean they are lesser quality, just mean's they are not fond of shows. If I like em enough and they have good hip, elbow, eye and thyriod

scores then I just may use them to breed and will definatly find them a job.

I have read the same from LIlli on this forum about some of her dogs. I understand the presence of a lot of strange dogs can also be challenging for some livestock guardians. I'd have thought that's something you'd not want to discourage in a working breed.

I have not yet had the pleasure of visiting Crufts but my understanding is that the sheer size of the event and the mass of the public would be stressful for some dogs, perhaps even dogs that are fine at smaller shows. I don't necessarily think that a show of that magnitude is going to show case every individual dog well. I'd be picking my Crufts dogs as carefully as I picked any show prospect. You'd need them bombproof.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[zoiboy]

[quote name='

I have read the same from LIlli on this forum about some of her dogs. I understand the presence of a lot of strange dogs can also be challenging for some livestock guardians. I'd have thought that's something you'd not want to discourage in a working breed.

I have not yet had the pleasure of visiting Crufts but my understanding is that the sheer size of the event and the mass of the public would be stressful for some dogs, perhaps even dogs that are fine at smaller shows. I don't necessarily think that a show of that magnitude is going to show case every individual dog well. I'd be picking my Crufts dogs as carefully as I picked any show prospect. You'd need them bombproof.

I have been lucky in that I have had a few over the years that are bomb proof and just brilliant to take

out and about or showing. They certianly were brilliant and even to some extent social. At home or in the car

was a VERY DIFFERENT kettle of fish.

this tends to apply to them all tho to greater and lesser extents

[Tralee]

When it comes to selecting suitable breeding stock it is VERY important to discriminate and even 'condemn'. I am thinking the Italians would be the first to say it too?

True, but that's not the issue.

An exhibitor is going to take a suitable dog to present at a Show.

In the past, a small number of judges have not, IMO, been fair in their comportment around my dogs.

Some have been blatantly deliberate and others ignorantly innocent.

But neither should be excusable.

It has happened in the past and is more than likely to happen in the future.

It happened at Crufts for cries sakes.

I would want my dogs to be dogs first, companions second, show dogs third and breeders last of all.

I simply do not want the order changed for the convenience of some overbearing Judge, Dog Club or Canine Council.

Perhaps there's your problem. You might need a rethink on that list and perhaps looking at your dogs as being suitable as potential breeders ( type, temperament, structure and soundness ), then what the dogs were actually bred for and can they do the job. They may or may not make a great companion and given the breed history it would be rather arse about to put "companion" anywhere near the top of the list, along with exhibition.

You can blame judges all you like, but you are the one who has ultimately put your dog in an environmemt that it's not typically suited for.

You just won't accept the conclusions of someone with a modicum of intelligence that has learned something about the breed.

What you say about Maremmas not being a companion dog is just utter tripe.

They are historically a shepherdesses dog and were corralled at night with their humans.

They've always had human contact.

The idea that they can be abandoned on some endless sheep farm and fed with a hopper is an abuse, particular to Australia. But no surprises there.

I don't know why you don't concede that you are talking through your hat.

There is no disgrace is saying you don't know or conceding that you can in fact learn something from others.

[Salukifan]

Tralee, just out of interest, do you find showing stressful?

There's many a dog that reads its owners cues and takes its lead from that. A breed with a strong devotion to its owner and inclined to treat strangers with suspicion might not be inclined to allow a stranger to handle it if the owner was subconciously signalling that all was not well.

Handler stress can really throw a dog. The stress of competition, the stress of the occasion, the stress of wanting to do well....

And of course the stress of wondering whether a dog that's not reacted well to being handled will react this time - you see these play out at shows every weekend.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[zoiboy]

The idea that they can be abandoned on some endless sheep farm and fed with a hopper is an abuse, particular to Australia. But no surprises there. END QUOTE

RUBBISH this was in fact started by Ray Coppinger when he set up the Hampshire project.

Traditional methiods had no place in how the Americians wished the dogs to work. Since this

was the only info in english it has become ingrained as *best practice*

[Tralee]

The idea that they can be abandoned on some endless sheep farm and fed with a hopper is an abuse, particular to Australia. But no surprises there. END QUOTE

RUBBISH this was in fact started by Ray Coppinger when he set up the Hampshire project.

Traditional methiods had no place in how the Americians wished the dogs to work. Since this

was the only info in english it has become ingrained as *best practice*

I never said specific to Australia.

I said particular to Australia.

Anyway, I have no interest in what the Americans are doing with an Italian dog, other than the dog that I sent to Hawaii.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Tralee

[Rebanne]

They are historically a shepherdesses dog and were corralled at night with their humans.

how could they protect their flock if they were corralled with their humans? isn't night time when there is the most danger?

Think I might do some more reading at work tonight.

What work do your dogs do Tralee?

[zoiboy]

how could they protect their flock if they were corralled with their humans? isn't night time when there is the most danger?

Generally speaking, the folds we came across were to hold the sheep over night, the small caravans were the sheperd's homes

and the dogs generally remained out side and loose.

The national parks had folds, flocks, herds of cattle and dogs all over them. We were approached by PMA every where we went

and they were generally lovely calm dogs.

The only dogs we noticed that were *corralled* were those that were not generally safe :)

[Are You Serious Jo]

They are historically a shepherdesses dog and were corralled at night with their humans.

how could they protect their flock if they were corralled with their humans? isn't night time when there is the most danger?

Think I might do some more reading at work tonight.

What work do your dogs do Tralee?

Yes, good point, how do they protect the stock if they are corralled? I think everyone but one agrees, even the penultimate master of the Maremma universe the Italians agree, overtly shy cannot be judged. Standing and tolerating a judge is not the same as joy to be near a strange human or cringing to the point of moving away. Not all LGDs can and should be shown and maybe if yours are not enjoying it they are better as your pets tralee. You don't sound like you enjoy it at all.

[Rebanne]

Generally speaking, the folds we came across were to hold the sheep over night, the small caravans were the sheperd's homes

and the dogs generally remained out side and loose.

The national parks had folds, flocks, herds of cattle and dogs all over them. We were approached by PMA every where we went

and they were generally lovely calm dogs.

The only dogs we noticed that were *corralled* were those that were not generally safe :)

Thanks for the explantion, makes it much clearer

[Tralee]

IL CIRCOLO DEL PASTORE MAREMMANO

Discretemente attivo fu il Circolo del Pastore Maremmano, con a capo la dottoressaFranca Terruzzi, che organizzò anche alcune mostre speciali (le prime ufficiali), come quella di Brescia del 1952, prima in assoluto, con ben dodici cani presenti, o quella di Firenze pochi anni dopo che raccolse, grazie al grande impegno dei principi Corsini, ben ventiquattro soggetti provenienti anche da regioni distanti dalla Toscana. Finalmente, il nostro bel cagnone bianco entra nel giro della espizioni cinofile e contende in maniera che dignitosa i migliori piazzamenti sui ring d' onore ad altre razze allora ben più diffua e conosciate. Sono proprio di questi anni i primi campioni italiani di bellezza, come Roll (allev. E propr. Clementina Bazzini Piella), primo in assoluto nel 1953; Calf, nel 1954, bellisimo and veramente tipico maschio di cui il proprietario, nonchè allevatore, l'insegner Serrano, andava oltremente fiero; maremmano Jela, prima campionessa della dottoeressa Teruzzi, che ama ricordarla come "cane dolcissimo coni padroni, ma veramente terribile con gli estranei".

I understand that not everyone is fluent in Italian so here is a translation in which I have kept some of the peculiarities of Italian grammer.

THE CLUB OF THE MAREMMANO SHEPHERD

The Maremmano Shepherd Club was discretely active, with Dr. Franca Teruzzi as head and did organize some special exhibitions (the first official), like that of Brescia in 1952, an absolute first, with twelve dogs present, or like those gathered at Florence a few years after that when twenty-four subjects also came from regions as far as Tuscany, thanks to the great commitment of the Corsini princes. Finally, our beautiful whites entered the dog lovers exhibition and he contends in a dignified manner taking the best placements in the ring of honor against other breeds then well more diffuse and their affiliates. In these years, the first Italian Champions of beauty, like Roll (breeder and owner, Clementina Bazzini Piella), an absolute first in 1953; Calf in 1954, beautiful and truly typically male, whose breeder Mr Serrano was overall proud; Maremmano Jela, first Champion bitch of Dr Teruzzi who recorded "a dog very sweet with the owner but truly terrible with strangers".

I must have my quip.

It seems to me that the Maremma is not only suited to the Show ring but if they were denied entry in Italy, it would raise the question: Which breed would take their place as 'the Masthead' at Italian Nationals.

Edited March 16, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

They are historically a shepherdesses dog and were corralled at night with their humans.

how could they protect their flock if they were corralled with their humans? isn't night time when there is the most danger?

Think I might do some more reading at work tonight.

What work do your dogs do Tralee?

Generally speaking, the folds we came across were to hold the sheep over night, the small caravans were the sheperd's homes

and the dogs generally remained out side and loose.

The national parks had folds, flocks, herds of cattle and dogs all over them. We were approached by PMA every where we went

and they were generally lovely calm dogs.

The only dogs we noticed that were *corralled* were those that were not generally safe :)

Oh, come on!

'H' has told me all those stories.

They are hardly 'historical'

[Tralee]

This breeder (IMO), seen here with Anna Albrigo, is currently producing dogs which are better than the dog Anna presented at Crufts this year.

And you can see that she is aware of the quality of his dogs.

[Tralee]

Edited March 16, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]