Maremmas In Show.

[Tralee]

I missed posting this earlier, but better late than never.

A South American BIS Champion

[Bjelkier]

I'm curious how you can possibly tell the true structure of a dog without touching it?

Coat can hide a lot

[Tralee]

I'm curious how you can possibly tell the true structure of a dog without touching it?

Coat can hide a lot

Yes, a good question.

They may indeed examine them but they do it tentatively.

They certainly don't rush them, and then flick their wrist behind their ear or try to stare them down and make them submit.

They are a working dog and the Italians test and judge for a working temperament.

Maremmas are not dolls.

The correct judging technique is something that I want to investigate thoroughly.

I have serious reservations about the current approach here in Australia.

[espinay2]

Frankly I can't see too much problem with a judge examining a dog hands on. Certainly some individual styles are less ideal, but IMO you should be able to get your hands on a dog. This goes for pyreneans at least and French judges do handle them. But then they also have to undergo a temperament test in France. The way I have seen dogs handled by judges in France - many of them mountain working dogs (and also dogs from italy being shown there which ate certainly used to being handled by judges in their home country) is not too much different to here.

Edited February 20, 2013 by espinay2

[Tralee]

Frankly I can't see too much problem with a judge examining a dog hands on. Certainly some individual styles are less ideal, but IMO you should be able to get your hands on a dog. This goes for pyreneans at least and French judges do handle them. But then they also have to undergo a temperament test in France. The way I have seen dogs handled by judges in France - many of them mountain working dogs (and also dogs from italy being shown there which are certainly used to being handled by judges in their home country) is not too much different to here.

Hmmm.

Well then we are heading for a supposedly "working dog" that flounces around the show ring, licks the judge and then lets them pat their belly while frolicking on their back and begging for treats.

I think I know what the Italians would think of that sort of dog and what they might call their handlers.

Here, try examining this "Champion" dog's mouth.

[espinay2]

There is a difference between a dog that is overly friendly (or one that is too shy which can be just as much a problem) and one that is bold enough and steady enough to stand being handled in a quick and businesslike manner in an environment where it is off property and off duty. No different than needing to be examined by a vet.

[Steve]

There is a difference between a dog that is overly friendly (or one that is too shy which can be just as much a problem) and one that is bold enough and steady enough to stand being handled in a quick and businesslike manner in an environment where it is off property and off duty. No different than needing to be examined by a vet.

Agreed - off property it should be accustomed to doing and being open to what is required of it in the ring. I assumed that if a dog is winning in any country that the judge is putting hands on it and checking its mouth etc. Aren't they?

[Tralee]

There is a difference between a dog that is overly friendly (or one that is too shy which can be just as much a problem) and one that is bold enough and steady enough to stand being handled in a quick and businesslike manner in an environment where it is off property and off duty. No different than needing to be examined by a vet.

I have the same view and I have stated it before several times.

For example, it is perfectly acceptable for a Maremma Sheepdog to work a flock in its paddock against dogs, foxes and thieves. But, they must also be able to leave their "guardian demon" behind when they venture into other less officious situations.

But, twice last Saturday I had two different Judges present themselves as a threat to my puppy boy.

It beggars belief really.

Judges should be au fait with the Maremma temperament, "wary of strangers."

They can't just jump on the dog and expect it to submit.

The Maremma has to be befriended and deferred to if someone wishes to greet it.

It is the Maremma's decision whether someone is going to handle it and judges should understand that.

They were bred to keep thieves off the lambs and how many thieves do you think there are in Italy?

[Steve]

Geez Tralee who is judging them? - Surely anyone who is qualified to judge should know what is needed to do the job properly!

What do you mean they presented as a threat ? How can we address this issue as we don't want the dogs being seen to be lacking in temperament. If a judge is presenting as a threat then how can the dog's temperament be fairly judged? Before we know it they will be listed as aggressive.

[Rebanne]

Maybe Tralee's dogs aren't sound in temperament which is why he keeps trying to say the judges are approaching the dogs wrong?

It's a recurring theme of his - the judges always don't handle/approach his dogs in the correct way, therefore putting his dogs at a disadvantage.

[Tralee]

Maybe Tralee's dogs aren't sound in temperament which is why he keeps trying to say the judges are approaching the dogs wrong?

It's a recurring theme of his - the judges always don't handle/approach his dogs in the correct way, therefore putting his dogs at a disadvantage.

I own Australian Champion Allarme Arctic Gem and Australian Champion Schaferden Celtic Sun who I personally titled over a number of years.

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013, in the Lismore Local Court four Dangerous Dog Declarations were revoked because the Lismore Council conceded they had mistakenly put notifications on my four dogs which are not dangerous.

I don't let people treat me like an idiot which is why I spent $3500 in Barrister fees and paid a further $17 a day to keep a dog kennelled in Queensland to protect my dogs from the kind of attitude that you feel is somehow not slanderous or does not deem me to be bereft of the cognitive function necessary to discern the correct approach and handling of a Maremma from an incorrect one.

Maybe you need to give me the benefit of the doubt and consider that perhaps I actually do have some integrity and a valid complaint.

I've seen more than one judge have difficulties with dogs and not just with Maremmas either.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Tralee

[Bilbo_Baggins_Junior]

Maybe Tralee's dogs aren't sound in temperament which is why he keeps trying to say the judges are approaching the dogs wrong?

It's a recurring theme of his - the judges always don't handle/approach his dogs in the correct way, therefore putting his dogs at a disadvantage.

I own Australian Champion Allarme Arctic Gem and Australian Champion Schaferden Celtic Sun who I personally titled over a number of years.

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013, in the Lismore Local Court four Dangerous Dog Declarations were revoked because the Lismore Council conceded they had mistakenly put notifications on my four dogs which are not dangerous.

I don't let people treat me like an idiot which is why I spent $3500 in Barister fees and paid a further $17 a day to keep a dog kennelled in Queensland to protect my dogs from the kind of attitude that you feel is somehow not slanderous or does not deem me to be bereft of the cognitive function necessary to discern the correct approach and handling of a Maremma from an incorrect one.

Maybe you need to give me the benefit of the doubt and consider that perhaps I actually do have some integrity and a valid complaint.

I've seen more than one judge have difficulties with dogs and not just with Maremmas either.

And what does titling 2 dogs over a number of years prove in a rare breed?

With the small amount of Maremma that get shown all across Australia it is simply a case of going to 17 shows and picking up your 6 points (barring non awarding)

It is not exactly hard to title a rare breed, as most people with any rare greed will tell you getting the group and in show awards is what you aim for.

[Florise]

And what does titling 2 dogs over a number of years prove in a rare breed?

With the small amount of Maremma that get shown all across Australia it is simply a case of going to 17 shows and picking up your 6 points (barring non awarding)

It is not exactly hard to title a rare breed, as most people with any rare greed will tell you getting the group and in show awards is what you aim for.

I think the point you missed is that they are in fact titled, meaning enough judges deemed them worthy and did not non award. Surely a judge who could not approach a dog becuase of fears related to temperament, would non award.

[Rebanne]

I've seen more than one judge have difficulties with dogs and not just with Maremmas either.

so have I but the dogs in question did not exhibit very sound temperament at that time. Because of the judge or because of the dog

[Tralee]

Maybe Tralee's dogs aren't sound in temperament which is why he keeps trying to say the judges are approaching the dogs wrong?

It's a recurring theme of his - the judges always don't handle/approach his dogs in the correct way, therefore putting his dogs at a disadvantage.

I own Australian Champion Allarme Arctic Gem and Australian Champion Schaferden Celtic Sun who I personally titled over a number of years.

On Tuesday, February 12, 2013, in the Lismore Local Court four Dangerous Dog Declarations were revoked because the Lismore Council conceded they had mistakenly put notifications on my four dogs which are not dangerous.

I don't let people treat me like an idiot which is why I spent $3500 in Barister fees and paid a further $17 a day to keep a dog kennelled in Queensland to protect my dogs from the kind of attitude that you feel is somehow not slanderous or does not deem me to be bereft of the cognitive function necessary to discern the correct approach and handling of a Maremma from an incorrect one.

Maybe you need to give me the benefit of the doubt and consider that perhaps I actually do have some integrity and a valid complaint.

I've seen more than one judge have difficulties with dogs and not just with Maremmas either.

And what does titling 2 dogs over a number of years prove in a rare breed?

With the small amount of Maremma that get shown all across Australia it is simply a case of going to 17 shows and picking up your 6 points (barring non awarding)

It is not exactly hard to title a rare breed, as most people with any rare breed will tell you getting the group and in show awards is what you aim for.

And so this thread is about, umm, what exactly??

Its not titled: "Have a go!"

It is exactly because Maremma in Australia are not getting BIS whereas in Italy, Europe, Sth America etc they are.

If fact, they are earning BIS at World Shows.

There are two aspects as to why this is so.

The dogs don't have merit which is questionable.

And the Judges are not putting them up.

Allarme Arctic Gem earned her fair share of Class in Group Awards.

She made another breeder cry on her first contested show when she beat the other dogs.

We also regularly exhibited against other Maremma.

What does that say to your 6 point champion claim?

Edited February 21, 2013 by Tralee

[Rebanne]

And what does titling 2 dogs over a number of years prove in a rare breed?

With the small amount of Maremma that get shown all across Australia it is simply a case of going to 17 shows and picking up your 6 points (barring non awarding)

It is not exactly hard to title a rare breed, as most people with any rare greed will tell you getting the group and in show awards is what you aim for.

I think the point you missed is that they are in fact titled, meaning enough judges deemed them worthy and did not non award. Surely a judge who could not approach a dog becuase of fears related to temperament, would non award.

I've seen dogs awarded that the judge never touched, also seen them dumped.

[Tralee]

Geez Tralee who is judging them? - Surely anyone who is qualified to judge should know what is needed to do the job properly!

What do you mean they presented as a threat ? How can we address this issue as we don't want the dogs being seen to be lacking in temperament. If a judge is presenting as a threat then how can the dog's temperament be fairly judged? Before we know it they will be listed as aggressive.

Kudos to the Open Judge on Saturday who ignored the Steward and extended his examination of Flynnch who would not let the Judge run his hands over his back.

The Judge kept flicking his wrist behind Flynnch's ear.

However, the judge allowed Flynnch time, and the dog approached the judge, sniffed his leg, then allowed the judge to pat him.

The Judge then told me he was going to give him Breed and quipped the Steward saying the dog is not aggressive.

Flynnch went into group but was not good enough however he backed up for Open in Group and was awarded the Class over other dogs who had their titles.

I was so proud.

When Flynnch went into the Champion Show the Judge blind-sided him, and rushed at him holding out her hand.

I had already spoken to the judge as Flynnch had a wound on his rear from being in kennel in Queensland for two weeks and would not let anyone, including myself, touch him.

We agreed to withdraw the dog on this occasion.

But neither Judge approached the dog fairly.

This of course is my point.

I should point out that there was a Red Setter in the adjacent ring which was putting on a protracted display of disapproval.

Flynnch did nothing even remotely similar in either show.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

And what does titling 2 dogs over a number of years prove in a rare breed?

With the small amount of Maremma that get shown all across Australia it is simply a case of going to 17 shows and picking up your 6 points (barring non awarding)

It is not exactly hard to title a rare breed, as most people with any rare greed will tell you getting the group and in show awards is what you aim for.

I think the point you missed is that they are in fact titled, meaning enough judges deemed them worthy and did not non award. Surely a judge who could not approach a dog becuase of fears related to temperament, would non award.

I've seen more than one judge have difficulties with dogs and not just with Maremmas either.

so have I but the dogs in question did not exhibit very sound temperament at that time. Because of the judge or because of the dog

No no no, you miss the issue.

I am saying that the corrrect temperament for Maremma is "wary of Strangers".

To put it another way, we should not be able to use the word 'friendly' to describe a Maremma.

Being aggressive and not being friendly are miles apart.

So, when they are judged they should be judged on their 'wariness with strangers'.

This is what I see happening in Italy.

The Judges are asking to the dogs to display their working dog temperament.

Temperament is part of the standard, and should be included in the judging criteria.

Conversely, the dogs should not be called aggressive for displaying their wariness of strangers.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Tralee

[Rebanne]

Kudos to the Open Judge on Saturday who ignored the Steward and extended his examination of Flynnch who would not let the Judge run his hands over his back.

The Judge kept flicking his wrist behind Flynch's ear.

However, the judge allowed Flynnch time, and the dog approached the judge, sniffed his leg, then allowed the judge to pat him.

The Judge then told me he was going to give him Breed and quipped the Steward saying the dog is not aggressive.

Flynnch went into group but was not good enough however he backed up for Open in Group and was awarded the Class over other dogs who had their titles.

I was so proud.

When Flynnch went into the Champion Show the Judge blind-sided him, and rushed at him holding out her hand.

I had already spoken to the judge as Flynnch had a wound on his rear from being in kennel in Queensland for two weeks and would not let anyone, including myself, touch him.

We agreed to withdraw the dog on this occasion.

But neither Judge approached the dog fairly.

This of course is my point.

I should point out that there was a Red Setter in the adjacent ring which was putting on a protracted display of disapproval.

Flynnch did nothing even remotely similar in either show.

Why would you even show a dog not even you could touch? Just setting the dog up to fail.

And it's Irish Setter and you don't know how it's display of unsound temperament was rewarded by the judge or do you?

[Tralee]

Maybe Tralee's dogs aren't sound in temperament which is why he keeps trying to say the judges are approaching the dogs wrong?

It's a recurring theme of his - the judges always don't handle/approach his dogs in the correct way, therefore putting his dogs at a disadvantage.

I've seen more than one judge have difficulties with dogs and not just with Maremmas either.

So have I but the dogs in question did not exhibit very sound temperament at that time. Because of the judge or because of the dog

I've seen dogs awarded that the judge never touched, also seen them dumped.

Why would you even show a dog not even you could touch? Just setting the dog up to fail.

And it's Irish Setter and you don't know how it's display of unsound temperament was rewarded by the judge or do you?

Apart from contradicting yourself about putting hands on the dogs, you have your own recurring theme when you reply to me.

Are you part of the solution or do you just set out to slag off others who are advocating for their own breed?

Do you own and exhibit Maremma, or did you not see that they cannot be lumped together with other breeds and approached in a generalist fashion?