Maremmas In Show.

[Tralee]

Those people posting one line quips, and not contributing to our discussion about the responsibility of breeding for the betterment of the breed, could you kindly go and try to annoy someone else.

Unless of course, you have something positive to contribute.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

The distinction should be made between liver pigment (not in maremma) and decreased black pigment which shows up as brown (think 'snow nose'). This problem sometimes surfaces in all white Pyr and is considered to be an unwanted and incorrect 'dilution' (not 'dilute') of the black pigment. As the standard calls for good black pigment it is not correct.

The standard is an ideal, which will never be fully populated.

In fact, small numbers of dogs have high scores on the standard.

That's why those few dogs are BIS internationally.

[Tralee]

Considering the high risk of melanoma in Australia, shouldn't all breeders only breed with dogs with full pigment and no liver.

YES !!!!!!

You can if you want, but dictating to Mother Nature is never wise.

If I produce 40 puppies and one has a pink nose, does that mean the other 39 are not viable.

If so, then what about the little puppy bitch born with full and complete pigment, all her skin and every toe nail solid black? Could you get her out of two other dogs? Good point isn't it.

The colour is genetic but not only that it is polygenetic and involves many genes.

You're implying it is a simple dominant/recessive mechanism.

Nothing, could be further from the truth.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

I'm going to do more research. I'm worried Ammo will get cancer now. :/

You would be very unlucky.

More chance of him having hypothyroidism, which is not limited to dogs. Ay Steve.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

I am breeding Maremma which are born to primarily work IN AUSTRALIA and even if pets they live in Australia. I've exported a couple for work in countries with similar sunshine intensity and worse biting insects but prefer not to in future.

Im not interested in whether or not lighter pigment is a problem in any other country. Ive no interest in considering or debating what other breeds of dogs have liver pigment etc. I dont want to breed dogs with this fault and because its been ignored as non important it is now in registered lines and more and more will be seen and more and more will carry it. Until you have seen a Maremma with light pigment working dont tell me its no biggy because they suffer terribly for it. And its not just about cancer - its sunburn and flies and mozzie bites.

For me its a biggy and its a big big deal that where it is in a pedigree isnt obvious so it becomes impossible to avoid eventually getting it in a whelping box and all of us end up having to deal with this contamination with pups born which are not as capable of living a life without what goes with light pigment because its not a biggy for them. Have no choice but in Choosing breeding dogs where we dont know if they carry it! Then you question why someone breeding dogs they use for work doesn't want to go near show lines or someone who needs them to work doesn't consider registered lines?

OK Now you have seen one working, its no biggy.

He is not breeding, he is not suffering but he has not been dumped in the middle of some paddock with minimal shade 24/7.

Your conclusion about predicting which dogs have the fault is too simple. Agreed it should not be over represented within the breed but the dogs will have the last say. I am not interested in being an advocate for some breeders. My advocacy is for the dogs, all of them.

[WreckitWhippet]

Those people posting one line quips, and not contributing to our discussion about the responsibility of breeding for the betterment of the breed, could you kindly go and try to annoy someone else.

Unless of course, you have something positive to contribute.

So basically we can post providing we agree with you ?

[WreckitWhippet]

They do exist :) & are an absolute joy to deal with compared to some of the huge fluffy, cottony pelts that are, I guess, more commonly seen

I think as the division between "work" & "show" lines increases and it's already happening just as in other working breeds, there will be an even bigger increase in the cottony pelt that does not easily shed.

Coated breed individuals that retain and don't easily blow their coat are desirable, regardless of it being correct.

[Steve]

I'm going to do more research. I'm worried Ammo will get cancer now. :/

You would be very unlucky.

More chance of him having hypothyroidism, which is not limited to dogs. Ay Steve.

Why would this dog or any dog [ Maremma] have more chance of hypothyroidism than any other symptom of a lack of Tryosinase.

Ive never met a Maremma with hypothyroidism but just this week I met another Maremma which had just had a tumor removed which co incidentally had a lack of the correct pigment. The tumor was not on its nose. And yes as already stated humans also have the same issues caused by the same things.

MUP More research is always good and essential if you are ever considering breeding them.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Steve

[zoiboy]

My boy has less and less pigment in his nose every year. Is this lack of pigment or some kind of fading gene?

5-6mths

1.5yrs

3yrs

Your boy has LOVELY EYE's !!! I would test him for a thyriod imballance personally

as it is more common than some would like to believe.

At some point tralee mentioned that he has a bitch with no pigment and he wants to

breed her. To my mind that is a bad idea. The gene sequance inheritance is complicated

and not well understood. BUT the fact remains that it is not at all desirable and the

first way to stop seeing this is to not breed with affected dogs...........

[Steve]

I am breeding Maremma which are born to primarily work IN AUSTRALIA and even if pets they live in Australia. I've exported a couple for work in countries with similar sunshine intensity and worse biting insects but prefer not to in future.

Im not interested in whether or not lighter pigment is a problem in any other country. Ive no interest in considering or debating what other breeds of dogs have liver pigment etc. I dont want to breed dogs with this fault and because its been ignored as non important it is now in registered lines and more and more will be seen and more and more will carry it. Until you have seen a Maremma with light pigment working dont tell me its no biggy because they suffer terribly for it. And its not just about cancer - its sunburn and flies and mozzie bites.

For me its a biggy and its a big big deal that where it is in a pedigree isnt obvious so it becomes impossible to avoid eventually getting it in a whelping box and all of us end up having to deal with this contamination with pups born which are not as capable of living a life without what goes with light pigment because its not a biggy for them. Have no choice but in Choosing breeding dogs where we dont know if they carry it! Then you question why someone breeding dogs they use for work doesn't want to go near show lines or someone who needs them to work doesn't consider registered lines?

OK Now you have seen one working, its no biggy.

He is not breeding, he is not suffering but he has not been dumped in the middle of some paddock with minimal shade 24/7.

Your conclusion about predicting which dogs have the fault is too simple. Agreed it should not be over represented within the breed but the dogs will have the last say. I am not interested in being an advocate for some breeders. My advocacy is for the dogs, all of them.

You are not listening - you dont know what comes next and its not about shade and only skin cancer and being more attractive to biting insects. You assume that this lack of pigment will only affect those parts of its skin which are exposed but if it is caused even in part by a tyrosinase issue - snow nose has been - as the dog ages there is an increased risk of loads of things. The dog I met on Monday has lived a life of luxury in a family and had lush green shade all of its life.

How are you going to stop it being over represented in a breed when many that are being bred either have it or carry it now and there are only about 140 a year throughout the entire country being bred and out of them only about 10 % go into the registered gene pool?

If your passion is truly for the health, future and welfare of the breed how can you not see what potential impact there is a on a breed when breeders are prepared to compromise to get a look which they like to stand on a podium. You may be able to control where your puppies go and what type of environment they live in if the environment has any impact on this anyway but you cant control what comes next for the breed if it leaks in and breeders dont take action to stop it.

[zoiboy]

I think as the division between "work" & "show" lines increases and it's already happening just as in other working breeds, there will be an even bigger increase in the cottony pelt that does not easily shed.

Coated breed individuals that retain and don't easily blow their coat are desirable, regardless of it being correct.

I certianly hope your wrong about this as that cottony soft coat is the pits to prep for a show

and even worse to live with in general. Like the lack of pigment, breeding with individals with

this coat is like breeding with individuals with a lack of pigment. DON"T do it would be my take

home message.

[Are You Serious Jo]

My "quips" are entirely about the betterment and welfare of all dogs. Snow nose is s serious problem and I really believe affected dogs should be culled from the gene pool.

[zoiboy]

Considering the high risk of melanoma in Australia, shouldn't all breeders only breed with dogs with full pigment and no liver.

YES !!!!!!

You can if you want, but dictating to Mother Nature is never wise.

If I produce 40 puppies and one has a pink nose, does that mean the other 39 are not viable.

If so, then what about the little puppy bitch born with full and complete pigment, all her skin and every toe nail solid black? Could you get her out of two other dogs? Good point isn't it.

The colour is genetic but not only that it is polygenetic and involves many genes.

You're implying it is a simple dominant/recessive mechanism.

Nothing, could be further from the truth.

You do get touchy :) but I am saying YES !!! to the suggestion that we should all

aviod breeding with any dog that is depigmented. Strong complete black pigment is

very important. Steve has given me some handy new lines of inquirey as well. But

as a good start the advice would be, use the best dogs with the strongest pigment.

I am not even implying that I actually understand the mode of inheritance actually.

But so far I have only produced one that is some what depigmented and I am CERTIAN

she will make no contrubition to the gene puddle.

[Rebanne]

Those people posting one line quips, and not contributing to our discussion about the responsibility of breeding for the betterment of the breed, could you kindly go and try to annoy someone else.

Unless of course, you have something positive to contribute.

public forum, people can say what they want. BTW this is the show forum not the breeding one.

[Tralee]

My boy has less and less pigment in his nose every year. Is this lack of pigment or some kind of fading gene?

Your boy has LOVELY EYE's !!! I would test him for a thyriod imballance personally as it is more common than some would like to believe.

At some point tralee mentioned that he has a bitch with no pigment and he wants to breed her.

To my mind that is a bad idea. The gene sequance inheritance is complicated and not well understood.

BUT the fact remains that it is not at all desirable and the first way to stop seeing this is to not breed with affected dogs...........

He does have lovely eyes but they are not the solid black or 'castagna' eyes that are so highly prized.

Chalice was PTS, as it turns out due to the meddling and interference of an incompetent Ranger and inept Council.

Arawn Bladewyn Chalice (jelly chali; jelly bean)

19:07:2008 - 25:08:2012.

RIP

It needs to be pointed out that the Italians do not share the view that is being foisted about here of exclusive breeding.

The gene pool is sacred.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

Considering the high risk of melanoma in Australia, shouldn't all breeders only breed with dogs with full pigment and no liver.

YES !!!!!!

You can if you want, but dictating to Mother Nature is never wise.

If I produce 40 puppies and one has a pink nose, does that mean the other 39 are not viable.

If so, then what about the little puppy bitch born with full and complete pigment, all her skin and every toe nail solid black? Could you get her out of two other dogs? Good point isn't it.

The colour is genetic but not only that it is polygenetic and involves many genes.

You're implying it is a simple dominant/recessive mechanism.

Nothing, could be further from the truth.

You do get touchy :) but I am saying YES !!! to the suggestion that we should all

aviod breeding with any dog that is depigmented. Strong complete black pigment is

very important. Steve has given me some handy new lines of inquirey as well. But

as a good start the advice would be, use the best dogs with the strongest pigment.

I am not even implying that I actually understand the mode of inheritance actually.

But so far I have only produced one that is some what depigmented and I am CERTIAN

she will make no contrubition to the gene puddle.

Concentrating on the minor fault of pigmentation to the exclusion of other minor faults is just plain and simple bias.

For example, the lip of the dog should be straight not undulating.

Got any dogs in mind that do not have an undulating lip?

Following the argument about pigmentation, dogs with undulating lip should not be used for breeding programs.

Good point isn't it.

I think we may be at an impasse, shouldn't you concede?

Edited April 17, 2013 by Tralee

[zoiboy]

Chalice was PTS, as it turns out due to the meddling and interference of an incompetent Ranger and inept Council.

Arawn Bladewyn Chalice (jelly chali; jelly bean)

19:07:2008 - 25:08:2012.

RIP ]

I am VERY VERY sorry that you have lost Chalice. Loosing a young

heathy dog to outside interference is never easy. RIP Chalice.

[zoiboy]

Concentrating on the minor fault of pigmentation to the exclusion of other minor faults is just plain and simple bias.

For example, the lip of the dog should be straight not undulating.

Got any dogs in mind that do not have an undulating lip?

Following the argument about pigmentation, dogs with undulating lip should not be used for breeding programs.

Good point isn't it.

I think we may be at an impasse, shouldn't you concede?

Pigment is only ONE thing to be thought of. I actaully START with hips elbows, eye's and thyriod.. This assumes

that I like the pup enough to want to concider him/her in the first place.

Breeding and showing/working is not for the faint of heart and I do it as it's a hobby.

Next the Italian festival..................

[Tralee]

I am breeding Maremma which are born to primarily work IN AUSTRALIA and even if pets they live in Australia. I've exported a couple for work in countries with similar sunshine intensity and worse biting insects but prefer not to in future.

Im not interested in whether or not lighter pigment is a problem in any other country. Ive no interest in considering or debating what other breeds of dogs have liver pigment etc. I dont want to breed dogs with this fault and because its been ignored as non important it is now in registered lines and more and more will be seen and more and more will carry it. Until you have seen a Maremma with light pigment working dont tell me its no biggy because they suffer terribly for it. And its not just about cancer - its sunburn and flies and mozzie bites.

For me its a biggy and its a big big deal that where it is in a pedigree isnt obvious so it becomes impossible to avoid eventually getting it in a whelping box and all of us end up having to deal with this contamination with pups born which are not as capable of living a life without what goes with light pigment because its not a biggy for them. Have no choice but in Choosing breeding dogs where we dont know if they carry it! Then you question why someone breeding dogs they use for work doesn't want to go near show lines or someone who needs them to work doesn't consider registered lines?

OK Now you have seen one working, its no biggy.

He is not breeding, he is not suffering but he has not been dumped in the middle of some paddock with minimal shade 24/7.

Your conclusion about predicting which dogs have the fault is too simple. Agreed it should not be over represented within the breed but the dogs will have the last say. I am not interested in being an advocate for some breeders. My advocacy is for the dogs, all of them.

You are not listening - you dont know what comes next and its not about shade and only skin cancer and being more attractive to biting insects. You assume that this lack of pigment will only affect those parts of its skin which are exposed but if it is caused even in part by a tyrosinase issue - snow nose has been - as the dog ages there is an increased risk of loads of things. The dog I met on Monday has lived a life of luxury in a family and had lush green shade all of its life.

How are you going to stop it being over represented in a breed when many that are being bred either have it or carry it now and there are only about 140 a year throughout the entire country being bred and out of them only about 10 % go into the registered gene pool?

If your passion is truly for the health, future and welfare of the breed how can you not see what potential impact there is a on a breed when breeders are prepared to compromise to get a look which they like to stand on a podium. You may be able to control where your puppies go and what type of environment they live in if the environment has any impact on this anyway but you cant control what comes next for the breed if it leaks in and breeders dont take action to stop it.

We should not tie ouselves up in knots, I know your argument and I am following closely the findings you uncover.

But I am not going to close the books, I am a trained scientist, I believe I have a modicum of intelligence.

To that end, I have a different perspective.

Basically, your retorts about Show breeding is alarming.

If the dogs do not approach the Standard then there will be no registered Maremmas at all.

[Tralee]

Chalice was PTS, as it turns out due to the meddling and interference of an incompetent Ranger and inept Council.

Arawn Bladewyn Chalice (jelly chali; jelly bean)

19:07:2008 - 25:08:2012.

RIP

I am VERY VERY sorry that you have lost Chalice. Loosing a young

heathy dog to outside interference is never easy. RIP Chalice.

Thanks, it was very sad, tragic actually.

I was very fond of Chalice and she was very fond of me, more so than the other dogs.

I won't be doing that again.