Maremmas In Show.

[Tralee]

Oh look there is Caferio and his mother. do you get permission to use these photo's tralee?

If you put a photo in a public forum then it becomes public, it is no longer private.

Its a different matter to take a photo or an image of someone which technically belongs to them and post it on the internet without their permission.

The internet is a public place it is not private at all.

I sit through this discussion with the school police liasion officer and our year 9/10 children every year.

You need to ascertain the facts before you make insinuations.

[Salukifan]

My point in this thread is that there are World Class Champion Maremmas.

On their day they are the best dogs in the World.

I am sure Australia has a share of potential World Champions across our many breeds.

But why should Italy have a monopoly on World Class Maremmas?

Our dogs work to world standards, they could be elevated to an indelible and insuperable Show Class as well.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country?

In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Oh look there is Caferio and his mother. do you get permission to use these photo's tralee?

If you put a photo in a public forum then it becomes public, it is no longer private.

Its a different matter to take a photo or an image of someone which technically belongs to them and post it on the internet without their permission.

The internet is a public place it is not private at all.

I sit through this discussion with the school police liasion officer and our year 9/10 children every year.

You need to ascertain the facts before you make insinuations.

Go look here at the Australian Copyright Council website http://www.copyright.org.au/find-an-answer/browse-by-a-z/ and download the photographers and copyright and the protecting your copyright PDFs. Photos are automatically protected by copyright and shouldn't be used without permission. However, some people don't mind if you at least post who took the photo. I'm a photographer and the whole I can use anything on the net myth needs to be cleared up. I would have thought you'd appreciate by now that original work should always have the creators name at least, better still a link.

[Rebanne]

There was a member of a group that I am also a member of on FB. They started posting up pics taken from the internet. No names, no logo's, no credit. Discussion was turning towards dogs I had bred. I very quickly put up a reminder that all my photo's are copyrighted to me. None of my photo's were put up.

[zoiboy]

If you put a photo in a public forum then it becomes public, it is no longer private.

Its a different matter to take a photo or an image of someone which technically belongs to them and post it on the internet without their permission.

The internet is a public place it is not private at all.

I sit through this discussion with the school police liasion officer and our year 9/10 children every year.

You need to ascertain the facts before you make insinuations.

Gee it was JUST a queston. Your a bit touchy about it tho so maybe you have no permissions?

[zoiboy]

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country?

In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds.

Very few world class Maremma have been imported. I *think* some where around 25 to 30

all up and at least 2 of those made no contrubition to the gene puddle. Perhaps more

will arrive in due course. I certianly hope that will be the case.

[Tralee]

My point in this thread is that there are World Class Champion Maremmas.

On their day they are the best dogs in the World.

I am sure Australia has a share of potential World Champions across our many breeds.

But why should Italy have a monopoly on World Class Maremmas?

Our dogs work to world standards, they could be elevated to an indelible and insuperable Show Class as well.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country?

In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds.

I made this point earlier.

We have not kept pace with the Italians and their breeding programs.

But we also face the disadvantage of not being in Europe and having exposure to so many Internationals.

The question about the stock brought to Australia over the past decades and the quality of our breeding also arises.

Colloquially, it is known that the entrepeneurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything, and it still goes on today.

[Steve]

My point in this thread is that there are World Class Champion Maremmas.

On their day they are the best dogs in the World.

I am sure Australia has a share of potential World Champions across our many breeds.

But why should Italy have a monopoly on World Class Maremmas?

Our dogs work to world standards, they could be elevated to an indelible and insuperable Show Class as well.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country?

In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds.

We have world class Maremma in this country and it would appear much depends on who is doing the judging and interpreting the standard.

It doesnt bother me what is used as a benchmark for a champion show dog or that there will be at least slightly different types selected to breed with or stand on the podium but there is a hell of a lot more to selecting a dog to breed with than that.

[Steve]

My point in this thread is that there are World Class Champion Maremmas.

On their day they are the best dogs in the World.

I am sure Australia has a share of potential World Champions across our many breeds.

But why should Italy have a monopoly on World Class Maremmas?

Our dogs work to world standards, they could be elevated to an indelible and insuperable Show Class as well.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country?

In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds.

I made this point earlier.

We have not kept pace with the Italians and their breeding programs.

But we also face the disadvantage of not being in Europe and having exposure to so many Internationals.

The question about the stock brought to Australia over the past decades and the quality of our breeding also arises.

Colloquially, it is known that the entrepeneurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything, and it still goes on today.

Well if their dogs have to be tested for temperament because so many are lacking and that test has zippo nothing to do with how it could work Im not that convinced the Italians are doing all you seem to think they are doing. What's more those "entrepreneurs' built a gene pool which was extremely viable and had no known genetic issues .Ive got dogs here that have every single dog in their pedigree for 4 generations which are champions so suggesting to me that people were breeding anything to anything and that they still are? Rubbish.

[Tralee]

If you put a photo in a public forum then it becomes public, it is no longer private.

Its a different matter to take a photo or an image of someone which technically belongs to them and post it on the internet without their permission.

The internet is a public place it is not private at all.

I sit through this discussion with the school police liasion officer and our year 9/10 children every year.

You need to ascertain the facts before you make insinuations.

Gee it was JUST a queston. Your a bit touchy about it tho so maybe you have no permissions?

Granted.

Permission is not required, by the time photos get to me thay have gone through a chain of postings.

This is different to Copyright material which pertains to intellectual and economic property.

We can't be sued for 'photo junkets'

Regards

[Salukifan]

My point in this thread is that there are World Class Champion Maremmas.

On their day they are the best dogs in the World.

I am sure Australia has a share of potential World Champions across our many breeds.

But why should Italy have a monopoly on World Class Maremmas?

Our dogs work to world standards, they could be elevated to an indelible and insuperable Show Class as well.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country?

In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds.

I made this point earlier.

We have not kept pace with the Italians and their breeding programs.

But we also face the disadvantage of not being in Europe and having exposure to so many Internationals.

The question about the stock brought to Australia over the past decades and the quality of our breeding also arises.

Colloquially, it is known that the entrepeneurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything, and it still goes on today.

Then it seems to me Tralee that if you want Maremmas to be as successful in the show ring here as they are overseas, you need to do what every other importer/exhibitor/promoter of a less popular breed does to get them considered for the top awards:

• Import the best winning show dogs you can find/afford from the best lines - a dog and a bitch would be a good idea.
• Promote them in all the show magazines
• Put them on the end of a lead of a cracking handler and take them wherever international judges familiar with the breed are. Royal shows are a must.
• Follow up with imported semen and potentially a few more top quality dogs that can form the basis of a good breeding program
• Place pups in experienced (both with LSG and showing) homes and get the line out there. Share your dream and your line with others of the same view.

I can name several now highly competitive and internationally recognized breeds here that owe their current recognition to the hard work, and financial commitment of one or a few people.

You might want to think that you could buy a locally bred pup and crack it at Ag show after Ag show building a ground swell of recognition but frankly I doubt it will happen.

Edited April 13, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[Are You Serious Jo]

If you put a photo in a public forum then it becomes public, it is no longer private.

Its a different matter to take a photo or an image of someone which technically belongs to them and post it on the internet without their permission.

The internet is a public place it is not private at all.

I sit through this discussion with the school police liasion officer and our year 9/10 children every year.

You need to ascertain the facts before you make insinuations.

Gee it was JUST a queston. Your a bit touchy about it tho so maybe you have no permissions?

Granted.

Permission is not required, by the time photos get to me thay have gone through a chain of postings.

This is different to Copyright material which pertains to intellectual and economic property.

We can't be sued for 'photo junkets'

Regards

Wrong, there are very clear rules about copyright and photographs. If a person complains about you using their photo without permission the person hosting the website etc. is obliged to take it down. Now I know people use photos all the time so you are confusing the law with what people do while flouting it, but it's still the law. The polite thing to do is to link to the site you took it from, if you do this most people are happy not to chase you. You can't pretend laws don't exist because you don't want to follow them. If the owner of those Maremmas contacts Troy about the unauthorised pictures he will take them down. I hate seeing such misinformation spread about photography!

[mixeduppup]

That actually happened to me once on another website/forum. I was under the impression that you could use photos you found on Google and when I posted it a few days later the owner of the photo came on and asked (very nicely) if I could ad a link under so she could get recognition otherwise she'd request it be taken down.

Edited April 14, 2013 by mixeduppup

[Tralee]

My point in this thread is that there are World Class Champion Maremmas.

On their day they are the best dogs in the World.

I am sure Australia has a share of potential World Champions across our many breeds.

But why should Italy have a monopoly on World Class Maremmas?

Our dogs work to world standards, they could be elevated to an indelible and insuperable Show Class as well.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country?

In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds.

I made this point earlier.

We have not kept pace with the Italians and their breeding programs.

But we also face the disadvantage of not being in Europe and having exposure to so many Internationals.

The question about the stock brought to Australia over the past decades and the quality of our breeding also arises.

Colloquially, it is known that the entrepeneurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything, and it still goes on today.

Well if their dogs have to be tested for temperament because so many are lacking and that test has zippo nothing to do with how it could work Im not that convinced the Italians are doing all you seem to think they are doing. What's more those "entrepreneurs' built a gene pool which was extremely viable and had no known genetic issues. Ive got dogs here that have every single dog in their pedigree for 4 generations which are champions so suggesting to me that people were breeding anything to anything and that they still are? Rubbish.

C'mon Steve.

The temperament testing some Italians have undertaken is for good canine citizenship, it is neither universal or over-prescribed.

I could have had a $125 Maremma advertised in a Queensland newspaper, at the time I got my first dog. There must be hundreds of dogs that have been bred on farm without due care to the standard or pedigree. We have Maremma being bred here that are indisciminately joined and not pedigreed. Rescues have dogs that obviously display careless breeding.

Why you think every dog is a cousin to those you have, is beyond me.

So, not rubbish at all

Edited April 14, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

My point in this thread is that there are World Class Champion Maremmas.

On their day they are the best dogs in the World.

I am sure Australia has a share of potential World Champions across our many breeds.

But why should Italy have a monopoly on World Class Maremmas?

Our dogs work to world standards, they could be elevated to an indelible and insuperable Show Class as well.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country?

In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds.

I made this point earlier.

We have not kept pace with the Italians and their breeding programs.

But we also face the disadvantage of not being in Europe and having exposure to so many Internationals.

The question about the stock brought to Australia over the past decades and the quality of our breeding also arises.

Colloquially, it is known that the entrepeneurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything, and it still goes on today.

Then it seems to me Tralee that if you want Maremmas to be as successful in the show ring here as they are overseas, you need to do what every other importer/exhibitor/promoter of a less popular breed does to get them considered for the top awards:

• Import the best winning show dogs you can find/afford from the best lines - a dog and a bitch would be a good idea.
• Promote them in all the show magazines
• Put them on the end of a lead of a cracking handler and take them wherever international judges familiar with the breed are. Royal shows are a must.
• Follow up with imported semen and potentially a few more top quality dogs that can form the basis of a good breeding program
• Place pups in experienced (both with LSG and showing) homes and get the line out there. Share your dream and your line with others of the same view.

I can name several now highly competitive and internationally recognized breeds here that owe their current recognition to the hard work, and financial commitment of one or a few people.

You might want to think that you could buy a locally bred pup and crack it at Ag show after Ag show building a ground swell of recognition but frankly I doubt it will happen.

Well yeah, ya think.

Of course, our dogs have the genes in them to produce dogs of equal standing.

Some do argue that the breed should be developed from the existing lines here in Australia.

Personally, I would currently source dogs from about two, possibly three breeders at the most, here in Australia.

But, this is my point, and I know you get it.

I saw a Merle Australian Shepherd at a show in Queensland being exercised before exhibit.

It was a stunning dog and I had the view it would win, uncontested.

Fact is, it did.

That's the kind of Maremma I would like to see here.

I don't really care who owns it.

But if a rarer breed like the Russian Black Terrier can go Multi BIS Aust Supreme Champion then it seems to me the Maremma, in Australia, has gone begging for recognition.

Edited April 14, 2013 by Tralee

[zoiboy]

Why you think every dog is a cousin to those you have, is beyond me.

So, not rubbish at all

Well actually, steve quite correctly believes this as it is stasticially

true. Originally there were 117 imported and there were 3 in the very early

2000's. 2011 and after has seen the import of 4 dogs and a pregnant bitch.

OH just read it here for yourself

http://www.maremmano.com/breeding_numbers/australian_breeding_statistics_to_2000.html

http://www.maremmano.com/breeding_numbers/australian_breeding_statistics_to_2011.html

these are a little out of date ut you'll all et the idea.

Edited April 14, 2013 by zoiboy

[Salukifan]

But if a rarer breed like the Russian Black Terrier can go Multi BIS Aust Supreme Champion then it seems to me the Maremma, in Australia, has gone begging for recognition.

Or that finding out more about that dog and how it was campaigned might give you some ideas as to how to do it with a Maremma.

There is also the unpalatable fact that some breeds are simply "showier" than others - they have presence, they show their arses off and they have a movement style and are presented in a way that makes them stand out in Group and Specials line ups.

[WreckitWhippet]

But if a rarer breed like the Russian Black Terrier can go Multi BIS Aust Supreme Champion then it seems to me the Maremma, in Australia, has gone begging for recognition.

Or that finding out more about that dog and how it was campaigned might give you some ideas as to how to do it with a Maremma.

There is also the unpalatable fact that some breeds are simply "showier" than others - they have presence, they show their arses off and they have a movement style and are presented in a way that makes them stand out in Group and Specials line ups.

Or someone has imported and is now breeding dogs worthy of being recognised and awarded.

If Maremma in this country are backing off from judges, being difficult to examine and aren't really fantastic specimens, then it's no wonder they have been over looked to a certain degree.

[zoiboy]

[

If Maremma in this country are backing off from judges, being difficult to examine and aren't really fantastic specimens, then it's no wonder they have been over looked to a certain degree.

This is pretty much the case and it is difficult to fight. First impressions tend to

stick and a lot of judges have been shown shy dogs. It's easy to say it is correct for

a Maremma or any other breed should behave like that. If you do not have anythingg else to

go on them it's believable. There was a person showing who liked to tell people that

the dog wa EXPECTED to bite anyone so much as touching that people.

This is NOT I repeat NOT true.

[WreckitWhippet]

[

If Maremma in this country are backing off from judges, being difficult to examine and aren't really fantastic specimens, then it's no wonder they have been over looked to a certain degree.

This is pretty much the case and it is difficult to fight. First impressions tend to

stick and a lot of judges have been shown shy dogs. It's easy to say it is correct for

a Maremma or any other breed should behave like that. If you do not have anythingg else to

go on them it's believable. There was a person showing who liked to tell people that

the dog wa EXPECTED to bite anyone so much as touching that people.

This is NOT I repeat NOT true.

I'm not a judge but that's really all I've seen. I am yet to come across ( but I'm sure they exist ) a Maremma that is presented as and is a true show dog. Owners can't expect to win or do well in the working dog group, if they are not presenting a total package and this means a dog that has excellent conformation, is well presented and handled and has the "look at me" factor. There are so many WDs of other breeds that can and do pull it all together.

Edited April 14, 2013 by WreckitWhippet