Maremmas In Show.

[mixeduppup]

But that temp has been debated in this thread even. Is that expectation that they will work more independently than is traditional contributing to them being a dog that is more 'standoffish' ????

And to build on that , is it this type of dog that is less suited to the show ring than a dog with a 'traditional' working temperament (ie better suited to life working in partnership with shepherds)?

When did the breed standard come in?

[zoiboy]

Well they seem to have adapted well to living and working on their own. I wonder if the Italian dogs do as well as the US and Aus dogs in that regard, or if we've created a new strain.

If the Western world has in fact managed to creat a new strain, then SHAME ON US !!!!!

[zoiboy]

Yes, as I mentioned it was a method made popular first in the US and thanks (or no thanks) largely to the work of the Coppingers. The misinformation spread from there and the myth that the dogs 'work on their own' grew when traditionally that is not how they have work at all.

Glad I found that video then Zoiboy :). I have watched it a few times before and every time enjoyed in particular the obvious relationship between the shepherd and his dog.

Having been to Sirio's summer sheep camp and actually meeting a couple of his dogs it's nice

to see them. Unfortunatly I did not get to meet Sirio as he had already passed on. His Daughter

and her boyfriend/husband? are doing a wonderful job of keeping the traditions alive.

In may ways we have a great deal to thank the Coppingers for, BUT, I think they adapted a great

deal to *fit in with* the modern USA farmer.

[zoiboy]

If you trawl back through this thread, I believe Tralee posted somewhere about the Maremma's being with their people during the night (the shepherd maybe, I don't recall, or have the inclination to go through the thread myself :D )

Yes they're with their owners when they're not working but when they are working they work largely alone :)

Ok if, IF the dogs are indeed shut inside at night with the sheperdess who is actually looking after the flock?

From observasitions in Italy not only were all the sheperds MALE but they left the dogs OUTSIDE. Seems to my small

understanding to be far more useful to have them outside.

The ONE THING that struck me no matter where we went was the lovely laid back dogs. No hysterical barking at nothing

much and sweet calm dogs who left you feeling like you were watched closely.

[BlackJaq]

Well they seem to have adapted well to living and working on their own. I wonder if the Italian dogs do as well as the US and Aus dogs in that regard, or if we've created a new strain.

If the Western world has in fact managed to creat a new strain, then SHAME ON US !!!!!

Um Italy is not exactly a third world country.. They are a member of the EU and reasonably civilized..... And from a traditional point of view (or map making) they are more of a Western country than the US and Australia combined......

Edited April 8, 2013 by BlackJaq

[zoiboy]

Um Italy is not exactly a third world country.. They are a member of the EU and reasonably civilized..... And from a traditional point of view (or map making) they are more of a Western country than the US and Australia combined......

SORY, I was not thinking.

[mixeduppup]

The sheep are usually brought into small holding yards at night and left to graze during the day (I just read this so hoping I'm correct)

[Tralee]

A few points, but I will have to return when I have more time.

I did not see any dogs in the video about Sardenia Espinay2 but it does clearly show the sheep being corralled at night.

Zoiboy, my comment about the sheep traditionally being corralled at night has somehow been misconstrued.

The dogs were brought into the corral with the sheep and shpherdesses, but if I was shepherding the sheep I'd be using a dog to keep me warm at night.

It doesn't mean the dog would stay there all night though. :laugh:

mixeduppup. Your ideas about the dogs being abandoned on sprawling sheep farms, I have to tell you, is an abuse of the breed.

This is because the Maremma is a shepherd's dog, but most importantly the Maremma is inherently associative

The Maremma needs intelligent company not the mindless twaddle of sheep.

I have more to say about the current state of affairs in Italy but quickly point out here that the Italians have surpassed our dogs in their breeding programs and we have not kept pace with their developments. The current Italian dogs winning World BIS are far and beyond superior to anything in this country.

Regards

Edited April 8, 2013 by Tralee

[mixeduppup]

A few points, but I will have to return when I have more time.

I did not see any dogs in the video about Sardenia Espinay2 but it does clearly show the sheep being corralled at night.

Zoiboy, my comment about the sheep traditionally being corralled at night has somehow been misconstrued.

The dogs were brought into the corral with the sheep and shpherdesses, but if I was shepherding the sheep I'd be using a dog to keep me warm at night.

It doesn't mean the dog would stay there all night though. :laugh:

mixeduppup. Your ideas about the dogs being abandoned on sprawling sheep farms, I have to tell you, is an abuse of the breed.

This is because the Maremma is a shepherd's dog, but most importantly the Maremma is inherently associative

The Maremma needs intelligent company not the mindless twaddle of sheep.

I have more to say about the current state of affairs in Italy but quickly point out here that the Italians have surpassed our dogs in their breeding programs and we have not kept pace with their developments. The current Italian dogs winning World BIS are far and beyond superior to anything in this country.

Regards

So you don't agree with many people that keep their dogs like that in rural areas? They usually keep them in pairs. Would that be considered intelligent company or do they need the company of humans to be considered proper maremmas?

[Tralee]

A few points, but I will have to return when I have more time.

I did not see any dogs in the video about Sardenia Espinay2 but it does clearly show the sheep being corralled at night.

Zoiboy, my comment about the sheep traditionally being corralled at night has somehow been misconstrued.

The dogs were brought into the corral with the sheep and shpherdesses, but if I was shepherding the sheep I'd be using a dog to keep me warm at night.

It doesn't mean the dog would stay there all night though. :laugh:

mixeduppup. Your ideas about the dogs being abandoned on sprawling sheep farms, I have to tell you, is an abuse of the breed.

This is because the Maremma is a shepherd's dog, but most importantly the Maremma is inherently associative

The Maremma needs intelligent company not the mindless twaddle of sheep.

I have more to say about the current state of affairs in Italy but quickly point out here that the Italians have surpassed our dogs in their breeding programs and we have not kept pace with their developments. The current Italian dogs winning World BIS are far and beyond superior to anything in this country.

Regards

So you don't agree with many people that keep their dogs like that in rural areas? They usually keep them in pairs. Would that be considered intelligent company or do they need the company of humans to be considered proper maremmas?

People keep Rottweilers and GSDs fenced inside car yards and wreckers and service stations but they can hardly be recognised as 'dogs' due to the neglect and abuse they have suffered.

The feral attitude of Maremmas left on large sheep farms and fed with hoppers is not the correct temperament. They should be alert but not aggressive. Dogs that have to be caged before the sheep can be herded and sheared have become vicious and misrpresent the breed.

The Maremma is a shepherds dog, they work in partnership with one or more humans, but that doesn't make them any less wary of strangers.

I've seen two dogs together, but the farmhouse and farmer are close by.

My recommendation to potential puppy owners is that the Maremma is not a domestic pet, neither are they a dog for the novice or amateur dog owner. The Maremma is a specialised breed, with particular qualities and attributes that need to employed in order for the dog to grow and develop fully. It is also important that the unique quality of the Maremma be protected and preserved.

Regards

[mixeduppup]

That's interesting because my friends can easily approach the maremmas they leave out in the paddocks and the dogs just walk with them as they take the sheep in to be marked or the goats to be culled or separated. they would never let anyone they don't know do that but they're happy for the people they know to muck around with the stock all they want. They also don't seem to mind their workings dogs. I think they switched from alpacas to maremmas because the alpacas were attacking their dogs but the maremmas don't seem to. I think perhaps if they introduced dogs they didn't know they may change but I couldn't be certain. This however is one particular set up and I don't know how other maremmas respond in other situations.

Edited April 8, 2013 by mixeduppup

[Tralee]

That's interesting because my friends can easily approach the maremmas they leave out in the paddocks and the dogs just walk with them as they take the sheep in to be marked or the goats to be culled or separated. they would never let anyone they don't know do that but they're happy for the people they know to muck around with the stock all they want. They also don't seem to mind their workings dogs. I think they switched from alpacas to maremmas because the alpacas were attacking their dogs but the maremmas don't seem to. I think perhaps if they introduced dogs they didn't know they may change but I couldn't be certain. This however is one particular set up and I don't know how other maremmas respond in other situations.

In the 'Maremma goes feral' situation the dogs are left for six months at a time.

Your friends obviously have a working relationship with their dogs and I would expect that to be the minimum criteria for keeping Maremmas.

I know a tea tree farmer who started with alpaccas to protect his weed eaters (sheep) but when the wild dogs came down they wouldn't move from the opposite end of the paddocks. They only reacted if approached directly. Absolutely useless.

Interesting point about the other dogs. The Italians have used the Maremma for guarding together with another breed for herding.

[mixeduppup]

That's interesting because my friends can easily approach the maremmas they leave out in the paddocks and the dogs just walk with them as they take the sheep in to be marked or the goats to be culled or separated. they would never let anyone they don't know do that but they're happy for the people they know to muck around with the stock all they want. They also don't seem to mind their workings dogs. I think they switched from alpacas to maremmas because the alpacas were attacking their dogs but the maremmas don't seem to. I think perhaps if they introduced dogs they didn't know they may change but I couldn't be certain. This however is one particular set up and I don't know how other maremmas respond in other situations.

In the 'Maremma goes feral' situation the dogs are left for six months at a time.

Your friends obviously have a working relationship with their dogs and I would expect that to be the minimum criteria for keeping Maremmas.

I know a tea tree farmer who started with alpaccas to protect his weed eaters (sheep) but when the wild dogs came down they wouldn't move from the opposite end of the paddocks. They only reacted if approached directly. Absolutely useless.

Interesting point about the other dogs. The Italians have used the Maremma for guarding together with another breed for herding.

OK, I don't know any that aren't checked on at least once a week. Yes the working dogs and maremmas usually get on very well. My maremma has an inseparable bond with my kelpies and they are the only dogs he'll let "chase/herd" his ducks without him stopping it. I've never picked up on that until you mentioned it. Perhaps they inherently know that their stock won't be harmed.

Edited April 8, 2013 by mixeduppup

[Steve]

That's interesting because my friends can easily approach the maremmas they leave out in the paddocks and the dogs just walk with them as they take the sheep in to be marked or the goats to be culled or separated. they would never let anyone they don't know do that but they're happy for the people they know to muck around with the stock all they want. They also don't seem to mind their workings dogs. I think they switched from alpacas to maremmas because the alpacas were attacking their dogs but the maremmas don't seem to. I think perhaps if they introduced dogs they didn't know they may change but I couldn't be certain. This however is one particular set up and I don't know how other maremmas respond in other situations.

In the 'Maremma goes feral' situation the dogs are left for six months at a time.

Your friends obviously have a working relationship with their dogs and I would expect that to be the minimum criteria for keeping Maremmas.

I know a tea tree farmer who started with alpaccas to protect his weed eaters (sheep) but when the wild dogs came down they wouldn't move from the opposite end of the paddocks. They only reacted if approached directly. Absolutely useless.

Interesting point about the other dogs. The Italians have used the Maremma for guarding together with another breed for herding.

Look - thats just not true .Maremma left for 6 months shouldnt "go feral" and not still allow their humans to do everything they want. You might find one person somewhere who farms animals that doesnt check on them for 6 months but that's hard to believe.Most would check on them at least every couple of weeks and in those situation they always have other Maremma with them.

Edited April 8, 2013 by Steve

[Steve]

I would also like to add my working Maremma rarely get what I would call intelligent company - if you define that by human company. They are checked every day, fed every day and have human hands on them for a few minutes every day but they live with and stay with their sheep 24 hours a day . The sheep certainly are not "bought in" and the dogs do not come back to the house to sleep.The dogs get on with everything on this property that I consider and treat as normal including my other dogs.When they do come into the house yard which is every couple of months they have no interest in behaving like my pet Maremma does and they dont seek out my company they still stay in the yard with the sheep even though they could come and sit with the humans if they wanted to. If I bring them in without the sheep they are no different to my pet Maremma.

They also work completely differently if there is more than one in a paddock and that has nothing to do with their gender .

Edited April 8, 2013 by Steve

[zoiboy]

What you say about Maremmas not being a companion dog is just utter tripe.

They are historically a shepherdesses dog and were corralled at night with their humans.

They've always had human contact.

The idea that they can be abandoned on some endless sheep farm and fed with a hopper is an abuse, particular to Australia. But no surprises there.

I don't know why you don't concede that you are talking through your hat.

There is no disgrace is saying you don't know or conceding that you can in fact learn something from others.

Here is the passage where you clearly state the case.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I don't understand what your position is tralee, how do you know your dogs are good workers because you keep yours in the suburbs and don't work them. Don't they stay alone while you go to work each day, where is their intelligent companion then? No one would leave their workers for 6 months without checking them because they would be risking their stock if the dogs were dead.

[espinay2]

I think there is a big difference between a dog that sees its owner every day like you do Steve, and one that is rarely touched, if at all, as per the old 'mythology'.

I guess what I was trying to say originally though is that the dogs have always worked with some level of oversight as the type of farming/livestock management they were used for traditionally was more intensive than some of the methods used in the US and Australia.

The maremma going 'feral' issue though is one we have experienced herabouts. I know a lady whose Maremma (new to her and her property admittedly - she had had her just over a week) escaped from the yard she was in when they had a thief/intruder open the gates on their property. They tracked her for about 80km to the outskirts of Canberra once they figured out where she went. Despite months and months (and now over a year) of looking and at least several sightings in the early parts she has not been able to be caught/found. But in the meantime and incidental to her search, several Maremma who were living 'rough' on the fringes of the city and avoiding capture have been trapped by her! There is currently one notorious one living around the outer suburb of Franklin in the ACT for a couple of years that has successfully evaded all attempts at befriending or capture. It has been photographed quite often, and seen MANY times, but no way this dog is getting caught.

Edited April 9, 2013 by espinay2

[mixeduppup]

I imagine if left to go feral they would be highly intelligent and not easily caught.

[Steve]

Look the whole point is that you can take a well bred Maremma and it can be a companion or a worker or both.Its about what they are exposed to and what they consider normal. Several of the dogs Ive bred are in situations where the people who own them only see them every couple of weeks and they are not dogs gone wild and they still know and respect the owners. Others out of the same litter are companions and live with a family. Some are with Autistic children, some are with elderly people and some are champions.

If they are going to work all week and come out of the paddock to attend shows then it simply needs to be seen as normal for them. If strangers are going to approach them whilst they are on lead they should be able to cope with that without any stress.

Im not sure how some of mine would react to that test in the video because they have never experienced it but Im confident that if they had been they would do what is required of them. I don't see the need for me to put the work into a dog which is with sheep all of its life from 6 weeks to 18 years of age to test it that way and expose them to when its not something its ever going to need to do

I dont see that as something that's necessary for me to test the temperament by . I know I can bring a bitch out of the paddock who has lived her whole life outside and put her in my family room for her to whelp and I cant determine any difference form her and the bitch that has lived in the house all of her life. For me that test isn't testing the temperament its testing the training and what the dog is accustomed to.

The temperament is how they react and cope and move under pressure when they are turned on or guarding - that video shows the skill of the trainer and how well they have been exposed to those circumstances and it isnt something Im interested in to determine whether its worthy of being bred.