Maremmas In Show.

[Rebanne]

In all honesty some of the things that are being said here are in my opinion a bit off the mark and Tralee has some valid points would be good just to discuss and debate the subject because as I don't show my dogs and never will do so personally its a part of the breed I've never considered in much detail but it appears by some to be about going after Tralee again and Im not up for it.

There is one thing I know about Tralee and that is 100% his intention is what is best for the breed and I dont believe its just about his dogs not winning or him making excuses etc

I dont always agree with him but thats part of what makes discussing things important so we can test what we think we know.

Bit hard to have a discussion/debate with someone who can never answer a straight out question asked of him. I've learnt more from others in this thread then from Tralee. All I've learnt from Tralee is the dog show world is out to get him and his dogs.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Rebanne

[Salukifan]

The questions I asked of Tralee about his stress levels in the ring were not motivated by anything other than seeking a cause for what his dog is doing. He did not answer.

Any dog trainer worth their salt, when confronted with handler excuses relating to breed would probably note while breed does affect temperament, all dogs are dogs and would eliminate handler causes for behaviour before digging deeper. I have already stated that a dog with a strong loyalty to its owner and with guarding instincts is going to be thrown by handler stress in the presence of strangers.

Personally I think it behoves all of us who exhibit show dogs to look first to our own handling before seeking to blame breed, judges, other exhibitors or any other factors for issues in the ring. Blaming breed suggests that any issues cannot be resolved and there is plenty of evidence to refute that. The challenges may differ between breeds but they are challenges that for the most part CAN be overcome.

Edited March 19, 2013 by Haredown Whippets

[zoiboy]

Haredown Whippets has stated my thoughts beauifully.

I am not so different from Steve or Tralee in that I am

very passionate about my breed and I do not want to hear

the stories I hear all to often about how they are bad

tempered, dirty, untouchable, and just revolting.

My own dogs are not like this and while I work hard to

change this perception I feel a bit hamstrung at times

by missconseptions.

[Steve]

Haredown Whippets has stated my thoughts beauifully.

I am not so different from Steve or Tralee in that I am

very passionate about my breed and I do not want to hear

the stories I hear all to often about how they are bad

tempered, dirty, untouchable, and just revolting.

My own dogs are not like this and while I work hard to

change this perception I feel a bit hamstrung at times

by missconseptions.

Well this is what is frustrating me - in fact at times it is as if we are talking about a different breed altogether.

My dogs have beautiful temperaments,they are not dirty nor untouchable. They are wary of strangers however, and would prefer not to be

touched or handled by strangers but I believe thats because there has never been a need for me to have them accustomed to this . In my experience with the breed over 22 years they are able to adjust to any lifestyle and any situation as long as the owners have ensured that is what they are exposed to and the dog sees as normal.

In my experience what the dog determines is normal is accepted and its as if they have an on and off switch. therefore exposing the dog to a judging type situation from an early age should elicit the required behaviour for it to be approached and handled by a judge in that situation.I would expect when it comes home and goes back to work that it would prefer not to be touched and make that known.

For example they will let anyone touch them on my porch because they have worked out that if I allow you on my porch its O.K. to do that - one which works with sheep and which has been in a paddock since she was 6 weeks old will actually go after a pat and want visitors to touch her. But she would never accept that as easily when she is in the paddock with her sheep. She is a brilliant worker and has never ever, lost a lamb or sheep to foxes which are as thick as thieves around here.

So I'm leaning toward an opinion that if you are going to show them and require them to cope with that then it should be a simple case of exposing them to it and the type of situations it will need to consider normal when its on lead. I dont think that being wary of strangers means impossible in all situations for a Maremma to be handled or examined.

My concern is that some comments seem to attack Tralee personally and that takes the discussion out of my comfort zone.

[espinay2]

Haredown Whippets has stated my thoughts beauifully.

I am not so different from Steve or Tralee in that I am

very passionate about my breed and I do not want to hear

the stories I hear all to often about how they are bad

tempered, dirty, untouchable, and just revolting.

My own dogs are not like this and while I work hard to

change this perception I feel a bit hamstrung at times

by missconseptions.

Well this is what is frustrating me - in fact at times it is as if we are talking about a different breed altogether.

My dogs have beautiful temperaments,they are not dirty nor untouchable. They are wary of strangers however, and would prefer not to be

touched or handled by strangers but I believe thats because there has never been a need for me to have them accustomed to this . In my experience with the breed over 22 years they are able to adjust to any lifestyle and any situation as long as the owners have ensured that is what they are exposed to and the dog sees as normal.

In my experience what the dog determines is normal is accepted and its as if they have an on and off switch. therefore exposing the dog to a judging type situation from an early age should elicit the required behaviour for it to be approached and handled by a judge in that situation.I would expect when it comes home and goes back to work that it would prefer not to be touched and make that known.

For example they will let anyone touch them on my porch because they have worked out that if I allow you on my porch its O.K. to do that - one which works with sheep and which has been in a paddock since she was 6 weeks old will actually go after a pat and want visitors to touch her. But she would never accept that as easily when she is in the paddock with her sheep. She is a brilliant worker and has never ever, lost a lamb or sheep to foxes which are as thick as thieves around here.

So I'm leaning toward an opinion that if you are going to show them and require them to cope with that then it should be a simple case of exposing them to it and the type of situations it will need to consider normal when its on lead. I dont think that being wary of strangers means impossible in all situations for a Maremma to be handled or examined.

My concern is that some comments seem to attack Tralee personally and that takes the discussion out of my comfort zone.

And this is basically what we have been saying IMO. No one expects them to be golden retrievers. But as you state that with exposure they can be conditioned to the show ring and there is a difference between a dog that is naturally wary as part of its breed makeup and one that is overly shy etc. I have raised questions on the Italian TMC for example and received no feedback on that and how the style of handling differs from what Australian judges are doing. I think many are just concerned (and frustrated by the lack of direct reply) that what is being expected of judges in this instance is not something that should be expected or even needed for the correct judging of the breed?

Edited March 20, 2013 by espinay2

[Steve]

Yes correct however, I havent witnessed what Tralee is saying sometimes occurs when judges approach.if they are doing something that is so far out that it couldnt be anticipated by the handler or the dog then Id like to hear more about that and discuss the possible solutions without the need to disregard out of hand what he has to say.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Steve

[Tralee]

Well this is what is frustrating me - in fact at times it is as if we are talking about a different breed altogether.

My dogs have beautiful temperaments,they are not dirty nor untouchable. They are wary of strangers however, and would prefer not to be

touched or handled by strangers but I believe thats because there has never been a need for me to have them accustomed to this . In my experience with the breed over 22 years they are able to adjust to any lifestyle and any situation as long as the owners have ensured that is what they are exposed to and the dog sees as normal.

In my experience what the dog determines is normal is accepted and its as if they have an on and off switch. therefore exposing the dog to a judging type situation from an early age should elicit the required behaviour for it to be approached and handled by a judge in that situation.I would expect when it comes home and goes back to work that it would prefer not to be touched and make that known.

For example they will let anyone touch them on my porch because they have worked out that if I allow you on my porch its O.K. to do that - one which works with sheep and which has been in a paddock since she was 6 weeks old will actually go after a pat and want visitors to touch her. But she would never accept that as easily when she is in the paddock with her sheep. She is a brilliant worker and has never ever, lost a lamb or sheep to foxes which are as thick as thieves around here.

So I'm leaning toward an opinion that if you are going to show them and require them to cope with that then it should be a simple case of exposing them to it and the type of situations it will need to consider normal when its on lead. I dont think that being wary of strangers means impossible in all situations for a Maremma to be handled or examined.

My concern is that some comments seem to attack Tralee personally and that takes the discussion out of my comfort zone.

And this is basically what we have been saying IMO. No one expects them to be golden retrievers. But as you state that with exposure they can be conditioned to the show ring and there is a difference between a dog that is naturally wary as part of its breed makeup and one that is overly shy etc. I have raised questions on the Italian TMC for example and received no feedback on that and how the style of handling differs from what Australian judges are doing. I think many are just concerned (and frustrated by the lack of direct reply) that what is being expected of judges in this instance is not something that should be expected or even needed for the correct judging of the breed?

Yes correct however, I havent witnessed what Tralee is saying sometimes occurs when judges approach.if they are doing something that is so far out that it couldnt be anticipated by the handler or the dog then Id like to hear more about that and discuss the possible solutions without the need to disregard out of hand what he has to say.

Well I answer to questions that I deem pertinent.

I have learnt not to reply to queries that seem obviously leading or less than sincere.

The issue is the level to which Maremma advance at Shows in this Ccountry when they seem to be very well represented at achieving BIS in European Shows.

I have posited two explanations.

Firstly, the quality of our dogs needs further development.

If you look at my dogs FB page then it would be hard to argue that the Italian dogs are not far and above superior to our dogs.

Secondly, our dogs are not going to be advanced if we don't have a level playing field.

Sooki had neary 400 points but I declined to continue with her on to 1000 points because she has never had, and was unlikely to win a BIS.

The best she did was Class in Group.

I objected to awarding Grand to a dog that has never won a BIG or a BIS long before the new criteria was introduced.

Similarly, Winja has in excess of 100 points and I am entering him in EKKA this year because he looks much more representative of the Italian dogs than those I see around.

The claims and accusations of handler faults and lack of training are groundless.

There was a blatant example of deliberate misjudging of Winja when he was still in Minor Puppy by a pair of judges which was witnessed and testified to by another All Breeds Judge and other exhibitors.

Generally, my dogs perform satisfactorily, nevertheless, the number of times in which the dogs are pushed off their demeanor, and I concede it is often inadvertent, is significant and unfair.

I stopped showing for a number of years for this reason.

But let me point out something else.

We have had far less problems in Queensland than we have had in NSW.

I have a real concern about a very real issue that I should not have to concern myself with when I take the dogs on an outing to a Show.

I am not a vindictive person and I do not want to have to be put into a position where I need to film and record my dogs attendance in order to protect my dogs from - incompetence or corruption.

I pay CCC fees and I pay Show fees.

I keep my dogs in the best possible condition and no expense is spared for their care.

I expect my dogs to be welcome, accepted, appreciated and allowed to compete on equal terms.

Those terms are dictated by the dogs and their standard, not by the convenience of some Judge, the expediency of the Hosting Kennel Club or any oversight of the State CCC.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Tralee

[Rebanne]

Tralee, you did show a dog who was carrying an injury that not even you could examine. Why would you expect a judge to succeed where you couldn't? That was very unfair to the dog and the judge.

[Tralee]

Tralee, you did show a dog who was carrying an injury that not even you could examine. Why would you expect a judge to succeed where you couldn't? That was very unfair to the dog and the judge.

Lets be fair.

The dog was kennelled in Queensland for three weeks prior to the show.

They bathed the dog and I collected him the night before.

They never mentioned any wound so, he could have done it after he was washed.

I didn't notice any wound until after he was awarded Breed in the Open Show.

Nevertheless, the Judge made the statement to the Steward that he was not aggressive since he was gregarious and friendly towards the judge.

I notified the Judge just before the Group runoffs that Ihad found a wound.

No one was more surprised than I was when he was awarded Open in Group.

Before the Championship Show I inadvertantly passed the Judge, told her that I hoped it wasn't irregular, and inquired if I should enter him since he had a wound and was not happy being examined.

She was concerned mostly about the dog and expressed a wish that he shouldn't unnecessarily be involved in an incident.

Her advice was not to take him into the ring.

I put it to her that I was not interested in the points and had only brought out for an outing having not shown him for a number of years and that if he would not allow an examination then I would withdraw him.

Consequently, I took him into the ring and she requested that I take him out as he clearly was not going to let her go past his head.

But he might have let her pass her hands over him, I don't have a crystal ball.

Look I don't really care if someone else's Maremma advances past my dogs.

I am not talking about the six point grands here.

My point is Maremmas have the potential to be better represented at Shows.

Clearly, both the Breed and the Judging at shows needs development.

Isn't this the purpose of dialogue.

You know, I hope I'm talking to the right people.

[Rebanne]

Thanks for the detailed answer.

[rebelsquest]

Tralee, I don't understand your comment about having to film your dogs to prevent corruption and incompetence?

[Tralee]

Tralee, I don't understand your comment about having to film your dogs to prevent corruption and incompetence?

I hope it never comes to this, but how else would you prove that a judge pushed your dog to the point of getting a negative reaction?

Its happened before more than once.

I had a pair of judges antagonise the same dog four times over a full weekend.

I've already outlined that this abhorrent behaviour was witnessed and testified to by another All Breed Judge and other exhibitors.

I have not forgotten their name and I don't ever wish to encounter them again.

But if I uncover this type of behaviour, then I have a moral obligation and social responsibility to ensure justice is done whatever the cost.

People like that should have their judging credentials withdrawn.

But, there are also minor and inadvertant infractions that are enormously frustrating and annoying, not to mention unfair to the dog.

I don't not like to see any dog unnecesarily 'nobbled' and denied its full recognition.

Edited March 20, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

Thanks for the detailed answer.

You're very welcome.

It was a good show wasn't it.

I can't help feeling that if he hadn't had that damn wound, he might have taken Open in Show. :laugh:

I was so happy, I was ecstatic.

[Tralee]

Edited March 22, 2013 by Tralee

[zoiboy]

I wrote to the CPMA and asked for an official rendition of what is expected in Italy by the CPMA and here is the reply.

CPMA - Circle of Maremma-Abruzzese Shepherd

www.cpma.it

Secretariat:

Antonio Grasso

Via Santa Barbara, 86 / A 83031

Ariano Irpino (AV)

Tel +39 334.1012495

Fax +39 082.5873046

On-line:

Mauro Di Fonzo

Via Chieti, 67046 9

Santa Jona Ovindoli (AQ)

Tel +39 348.8525806

Fax +39 1786052507

Hi Linda,

Therefore,

is absolutely false that here in Italy the dogs did not touch during the expo, on the contrary are checked teeth, testicles, back, everything the dog;

Dogs must not show fear at the time when the judge comes to touch and not have it run much less to hide behind the master.

the CPMA Italy has fought for this very aspect of the dog, or the character, and today we can say that 99% of dogs who go to expo, do not give character issues, thanks also to 'introduction by the Circle of Test Morphological character (TMC), where the dogs are subjected to a series of tests to see their reactions and assess if they have character issues.

In addition to the control of dysplasia of 'Hip (HD) and elbow (ED) you run a test reaction to a shot, move the dog gets close to moving objects (banners, envelopes, etc. ..), gets passed the dog between two / three and a group of people and gets encircle by the same to evaluate the reaction under these conditions, is weighed, and the dog are measured heights, circumferences of the chest, head, length etc. ...

This is to say that the dog touches and maybe even more .....

Propose to the Board of Directors to issue an official statement signed by our CLUB can spread to Australia to avoid errors in this regard.

Meanwhile, I invite you to watch the video of the TMC to this link to see what it is:

or

http://www.cpma.it/videogallery.php?sez2=6&idev1=336

A resent, thanks for your cooperation, Sincerely for CPMA Mauro Di Fonzo

[Rebanne]

Thanks Zoiboy for passing that along

[espinay2]

Nice to have the view straight from those in authority in Italy. Thanks!!

[Are You Serious Jo]

Good job!

[Tralee]

I wrote to the CPMA and asked for an official rendition of what is expected in Italy by the CPMA and here is the reply.

CPMA - Circle of Maremma-Abruzzese Shepherd

www.cpma.it

Secretariat:

Antonio Grasso

Via Santa Barbara, 86 / A 83031

Ariano Irpino (AV)

Tel +39 334.1012495

Fax +39 082.5873046

On-line:

Mauro Di Fonzo

Via Chieti, 67046 9

Santa Jona Ovindoli (AQ)

Tel +39 348.8525806

Fax +39 1786052507

Hi Linda,

Therefore, is absolutely false that here in Italy the dogs did not touch during the expo, on the contrary are checked teeth, testicles, back, everything the dog;

Dogs must not show fear at the time when the judge comes to touch and not have it run much less to hide behind the master.

the CPMA Italy has fought for this very aspect of the dog, or the character, and today we can say that 99% of dogs who go to expo, do not give character issues, thanks also to 'introduction by the Circle of Test Morphological character (TMC), where the dogs are subjected to a series of tests to see their reactions and assess if they have character issues.

In addition to the control of dysplasia of 'Hip (HD) and elbow (ED) you run a test reaction to a shot, move the dog gets close to moving objects (banners, envelopes, etc. ..), gets passed the dog between two / three and a group of people and gets encircle by the same to evaluate the reaction under these conditions, is weighed, and the dog are measured heights, circumferences of the chest, head, length etc. ...

This is to say that the dog touches and maybe even more .....

Propose to the Board of Directors to issue an official statement signed by our CLUB can spread to Australia to avoid errors in this regard.

Meanwhile, I invite you to watch the video of the TMC to this link to see what it is:

or

http://www.cpma.it/videogallery.php?sez2=6&idev1=336

A resent, thanks for your cooperation, Sincerely for CPMA Mauro Di Fonzo

Linda, do you have the reply from Mauro in the original Italian?

It's a great piece of diplomacy and promotion as is the want of any group with a political vested interest.

What else would you expect?

To balance the issue the perspective from the side of current exhibitors could be useful.

The conclusion from these examples is obvious.

They may not be the ideal, but the camera does not lie.

Just further to the earlier discussion, when I have an example with a judge putting their hands on a Maremma at Show in Europe I will display it.

In the meantime.

Perhaps I could write to a highly respected Italian breeder and exhibitor I know and see if the reality accords with the 'spin' from the CMPA.

[espinay2]

Tralee those pics show one dog not liking it's teeth being looked at - for which we can draw no conclusions as we do not know the judges assessment. The other two show owners mouthing their own dogs. Which also gives us no conclusion as in Europe it is more common practice in ALL breeds for this to be done and gives no comment on the dogs temperament. I did post video however of a dog having it's mouth examined by the judge as part of the TMC which shows that judges do examine mouths at least some times. And you now have a statement from that authority in Italy for the breeding of maremma (which is made up of breeders and judges etc) on what they expect.. Most certainly write to the breeder you know and be sure to post the answer no matter what it says - along with your question for context perhaps?