Maremmas In Show.

[Tralee]

I cant build a fence like that on my property even though Ive got lots of acres and sheep - definitely couldnt do it in town either - because in NSW electric fences cant be used near dogs as its against POCTAA and Id go a mile for cruelty as my sheep always have dogs with them.

Also might be an idea to swap from plastic bowls to stainless steel as sometimes the chemicals in plastic bowls cause lightening of the nose.

So are you saying the fence is illegal without knowing the voltage and misquoting the law?

The law states that the electric thread must be 15mm off the fence.

Can't have it both ways.

Tralee all I know of this is that I spoke with the RSPCA and I was advised that I couldnt install an electric fence of any description if my dogs were going to be exposed to it - so on my property I cant have an electric fence. Im not going to argue with them because I dont want anything which may impact on my ability to do what I do.If you are certain you fit within the prevention of Cruelty to Animals legislation good for you but I wouldn't have one here.I believe Rozzie went for an electric fence when it wasnt even turned on. I have looked up the law but not recently but have no recollection of any notations of it having to be 15 mm from anything within that legislation.

Well, when I reported our neighbour at Nimbin for hitting Flynch across the head with a stick, and Alastair from the RSPCA paid as a visit, I was advised that a dog fence could be fitted with a low voltage electric fence but the thread that carries the charge must not be in contact with any part of the fence and must be a minimum of 15mm out from the fence.

It is illegal to have to have voltages that are used with cattle. My device is 6 volts and when I bought it I made full enquiries with Norco who sells them. They also verified their suitablility and legality.

[Steve]

Thank you. It seems there has been an amendment to POCTAA since I made my inquiries and you are right a pingg fence is good to go for dogs but still not ordinary electric fencing used for stock - Good news. My apologies.

[Steve]

Fact - Tyrosine is an amino acid which is made from another amino acid called phenylalanine.

Fact - some dogs cannot produce enough working tyrosinase enzyme

Fact - Tyrosine helps produce melanin.

Fact - Insufficient tyrosine causes insufficient thyroid hormone and numerous other health conditions.

Fact – light pigment is undesirable not just for working dogs due to possible issues with skin cancer and insect bites but also according to the standard.

So conclusion.

At least until we know if we are playing around with the C gene which doesn't produce enough working tyrosinase enzyme in dogs - as breeders - there is no good reason to breed a dog which has a lack of pigment and several reasons to alert us to stay away from it.

You are absolutely 100% right I may be wrong and everyone else in the world who says lack of pigment equals greater risks for cancer etc may be way off track too – but what if ? Too much to loose to gamble with. I'm not having a go at you because you owned one or bred with it - but it really is a biggy if its overlooked and seen as something that doesn't need to be considered into the future.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Steve

[zoiboy]

At least until we know if we are playing around with the C genewhich doesn’t produce enough working tyrosinase enzyme in dogs - as breeders - there is no good reason to breed a dog which has a lack of pigment and several reasons to alert us to stay away from it.

Steve is there any way of mitagating the damage by way of how we feed or manage pups?

Things to recomend to puppy buyers?

[Are You Serious Jo]

Good, I couldn't remember what enzyme it is and searching didn't throw it up. Is there a test or is diagnosis based on symptomology?

[Steve]

At least until we know if we are playing around with the C genewhich doesn't produce enough working tyrosinase enzyme in dogs - as breeders - there is no good reason to breed a dog which has a lack of pigment and several reasons to alert us to stay away from it.

Steve is there any way of mitagating the damage by way of how we feed or manage pups?

Things to recomend to puppy buyers?

Short answer is we need more research.

We are in the wrong forum so Ill go short.

Thyroid issues in dog's numbers are often correlated to cases diagnosed in humans because you need iodine and other nutrients to be able to get this enzyme to go. So humans who get thyroid issues are often living in areas where iodine is lacking in their water source and diet - and their dogs get a higher incidence too.

I guess part of the answer is that you can get this condition via it being straight out inherited as it is in some breeds where they are not able to have the enzyme required working properly linked to white dogs more than any others - or it may turn out to be what the bitch ate or what her mother ate or something she was exposed to whilst pregnant etc but you can also have this shut down due to the diet lacking in the amino acids ,vitamins and minerals you need to assimilate essential amino acids to turn them into non essential amino acids.they are called non essential because the dog makes them if all is well and doesnt need to eat them. By the way Im relating specifically to thyroid issues but its about the same result for other conditions usually associated with aging as they are all related to this enzyme not working or slowing down as the dog ages - its also affected by the weather too - this snow noses. Maremma or some Maremma may be more genetically prone to this than the others but we dont know that yet.

Iodine, selenium, Zinc, Copper, Iron , vitamin A, bs,D and E are all needed to make it go. Any of these missing and that affects the ability for the dog to manufacture the enzyme.

Cruciferous vegetables such as broccoli, cauliflower, and cabbage naturally release a compound called goitrin when they’re broken down. Goitrin can interfere with the synthesis of thyroid hormones,Soy is another potential goitrogen. Anything with millet in it is awful as it creates a problem even if there is a good source of iodine.So they need to read the dog food labels. Raw Beef, chicken, egg, fish,and game meat is all good.

So if you use the above info to advise puppy buyers on what to avoid and what to feed its a good start - also a good idea to make sure you cover it with your breeding girls.

[Steve]

It shows up in blood test but problem is it needs to be done at least yearly as it is reliant on diet and aging etc. Would be good to be able to eliminate the C gene too but that will take a while.

All of my dogs get a yearly blood test now and Im working at firstly what is and isnt normal for the breed and taking note of anything such as a difference in enzyme levels etc which may be able to be used in conjunction with the pedigree and really good records re environmental changes and meds vaccines etc to determine patterns or warning signs for future reference if anything does show up. I see more potential benefit in that than I do in hip scoring for the future of the breed. If we wait until the science is done as it usually is it will take too long - we need to be collecting as much as we can in case we can use it for breeding decisions.

[Steve]

Good, I couldn't remember what enzyme it is and searching didn't throw it up. Is there a test or is diagnosis based on symptomology?

In dogs usually blood tests are only done when symptoms occur - they arent done as a matter of course and breeders test for genetic issues and hip scores etc but its rare to have dogs tested without something needing to be investigated more via symptoms.

Lots of immune system issues which may have a genetic component are able to be spotted quicker by watching the blood work which is not perfect but better than nothing until such time as there are DNA tests for them - a long way off. Without them dogs are bred without symptoms and things like Addisons show symptoms years later - the blood work might be able to tell a story sooner - might not too but worth a go.

[zoiboy]

Thanks Steve, that gives me a lot to think on and research.

[BJean]

I've only read the last four or five pages. I have no idea about Tralee's breeding program or his individual dogs. But I do note he has responded to questions publically (to his own detriment) criticizing his dogs and a series of personal jibes and belittling comments which I do not think is fair. Any other breeder would have had this thread deleted. And to the breeders participating in this public flogging: you should know better.

I dont care that Tralee is responding, you all know it is not a fair situation for him to be in wrt the group criticism and public scrutiny of his dogs.

[Are You Serious Jo]

The thread is about tralee lamenting the quality of Maremma in Australia and what he considers lack of success in the ring. He has had some not so subtle digs about other Maremma breeders as well. If he is going to post misinformation then why be surprised it is corrected. If people want to post on the internet and only get positive replies they should start a blog.

[BJean]

The thread is about tralee lamenting the quality of Maremma in Australia and what he considers lack of success in the ring. He has had some not so subtle digs about other Maremma breeders as well. If he is going to post misinformation then why be surprised it is corrected. If people want to post on the internet and only get positive replies they should start a blog.

It's still not good RJ :)

[Steve]

I've only read the last four or five pages. I have no idea about Tralee's breeding program or his individual dogs. But I do note he has responded to questions publically (to his own detriment) criticizing his dogs and a series of personal jibes and belittling comments which I do not think is fair. Any other breeder would have had this thread deleted. And to the breeders participating in this public flogging: you should know better.

I dont care that Tralee is responding, you all know it is not a fair situation for him to be in wrt the group criticism and public scrutiny of his dogs.

Sorry Lilli this thread isnt about Talee's dogs - its about the Italian dogs which he feels we should be aspiring to regardless of what we may compromise on to get them. Its not a scrutiny of his dogs or his breeding program as far as Im concerned its about the breed and where its heading in general.

[Are You Serious Jo]

No breed or problem is above scrutiny. If everyone sweeps issues under the carpet then the AR nuts will have everything they need to continue the decimation of purebred dogs. If breeders spoke out about health issues a long time ago there wouldn't be the problems there are now. Ignoring a breed health problem won't make it go away.

[zoiboy]

Sorry Lilli this thread isnt about Talee's dogs - its about the Italian dogs which he feels we should be aspiring to regardless of what we may compromise on to get them. Its not a scrutiny of his dogs or his breeding program as far as Im concerned its about the breed and where its heading in general.

This is what I thought the thread was about. Tralee is the only one attempting to make it about his dogs.

The rest of us are chatting in general terms

[Tralee]

I've only read the last four or five pages. I have no idea about Tralee's breeding program or his individual dogs. But I do note he has responded to questions publically (to his own detriment) criticizing his dogs and a series of personal jibes and belittling comments which I do not think is fair. Any other breeder would have had this thread deleted. And to the breeders participating in this public flogging: you should know better.

I dont care that Tralee is responding, you all know it is not a fair situation for him to be in wrt the group criticism and public scrutiny of his dogs.

errhh! Thanks I think.

Hell no, I'm not offended. Dialogue is not only necessary it is absolutely paramount.

I am not afraid of being wrong, and people should not use that admission disproportionately because I also love being right. For crissakes I got a MA out of it so its served me well.

But the jury is out, so call me a fence sitter if you want but I have not done anything other than defend a pup against culling. You would not get out of here alive if you had ever attempted to take Chalice from me and did not retreat, and I suspect the owners of Lumen feel very much the same.

The two dogs, both from separate litters have not shown any health issues, to date. I homed both of them to homes that were above and beyond far superior to any other home my pigment dogs have gone to.

So when I do something worth crucifying me for, then come and call.

Oh wait, maybe I should have phrased that differently because you don't need to do something wrong to get yourself crucified.

[Are You Serious Jo]

In what context are you using cull? If you mean PTS then you are dead wrong, no one said that. Culling in a breeding sense means remove from the gene pool, usually by desexing. I notice you haven't found any material that contradicts the information about skin cancer, there is no out jury on that. It is well known that cancer is a higher probability in mammals that have less melanin in their skin. No one is trying to crucify you, just to understand why you don't think this gene is a problem when there are two major issue associated with it, higher susceptibility to cancer and thyroid issues. Two dogs who are not very old (I can surmise this because I was already on DOL when you joined) aren't conclusive evidence. I just cannot understand why you can't see this as a potentially serious health issue for the breed, PARTICULARLY if it's a recessive. You don't even have to completely abandon your line, just cull (desex) those who are affected and keep to dogs with full pigment for breeding.

[BlackJaq]

I think people were questioning Tralee's attitude towards issues in the breed (which seems to be dismissive, and in support of breeding for show rather than work) rather than his dogs, since none of us have actually seen the dogs, except in photos.

He was the one to bring up his own dogs and post photos to demonstrate the issues we were discussing.

[Tralee]

In what context are you using cull? If you mean PTS then you are dead wrong, no one said that. Culling in a breeding sense means remove from the gene pool, usually by desexing. I notice you haven't found any material that contradicts the information about skin cancer, there is no out jury on that. It is well known that cancer is a higher probability in mammals that have less melanin in their skin. No one is trying to crucify you, just to understand why you don't think this gene is a problem when there are two major issue associated with it, higher susceptibility to cancer and thyroid issues. Two dogs who are not very old (I can surmise this because I was already on DOL when you joined) aren't conclusive evidence. I just cannot understand why you can't see this as a potentially serious health issue for the breed, PARTICULARLY if it's a recessive. You don't even have to completely abandon your line, just cull (desex) those who are affected and keep to dogs with full pigment for breeding.

Hmmm! Ahh, finally some sense. Well from you at least. lol

I get the argument about skin cancer, but I don't have the science, nobody does.

So, hear me out.

I have more than a superficial understanding of genetics and I know that not all recessives are lethal.

My current suspicion is that by calling for a total and absolute cull (breeding, your terms) you may be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Genes are sacred and you don't know, nobody does, what you might be removing from a limited and threatened gene pool.

Now the argument I have just made has merit.

A few points.

The number of 'pele rosa' Maremma in Italy is significant.

In fact, they exist in such numbers that they have been classified as a sub-type.

Surely, over all this time, the health problems that are being conjectured would have presented themselves many times over.

On the other hand, I know a woman who nursed a Maremma with cancer but, as far as I know, it wasn't a 'pele rosa' dog because I asked her.

Cancer is not restricted or exclusive to 'pele rosa' dogs.

Consider that if you had a 'pele rosa' dog that had every trait in the Standard, and in bucket loads, would it not be fortuitious, or who would forgo such luck based on inconclusive science that may ultimately prove false.

I'm not advocating breeding such a dog, I'm just doing what people who like to think do.

:)

Edited May 6, 2013 by Tralee

[Are You Serious Jo]

I would absolutely eliminate that gene from my breeding dogs no matter how nicely they fit the standard because first and foremost they are a working dog and anything that affects working ability must not be tolerated. I stopped showing and breeding my dachies a long time ago because I wasn't happy with some things that were turning up in my lines. I've walked the walk. No one has said that nose skin cancer is restricted to dogs with depigmented noses. What has been said it that the risk is higher than if the nose is fully pigmented. Would you put an Irish immigrant into the midday sun without sunscreen? No, because they lack melanin to protect from sun damage. I'm nearly purely Irish with a bit of English and I'm one of many, many Australians with developing skin cancers due to my lack of melanin.

As to the health issues being unknown, well how can an enzyme deficiency be anything that can be dismissed? Do you think there might be a lot of breeders in Italy that aren't truthful about their dogs. There are certainly quite a few in Australia that hide genetic diseases in their lines. Consider this, the light noses have only just started to become widespread, there is not enough time to discover the real effects of this disorder and in the mean time the gene becomes widespread and fixed. By the time it is confirmed that the enzyme deficiency is actually a problem, as all other enzyme deficiencies are, hence the term deficiency, the gene is too widespread to eliminate effectively. So all lines are contaminated by this gene because people are putting prettiness above health and working ability. Breeders who want to avoid this gene have a much smaller gene pool to then select from.

I've done plenty of genetics at uni too so you don't have the monopoly on understanding this. A small gene pool is not a disaster if you breed inteligently, if you are falling for the AR garbage you need to go do some more reading. It is entirely possible to have a very small population of healthy animals if you select wisely and cull ruthlessly. Go look up the highly inbred mice used in labs. If some Italians breed three legged Maremma would you do it too? Just because they do it means nothing, it just means a bunch of people are again breeding for the ring and forgetting that health is the most important thing to consider. There is no way I'd risk introducing a defective enzyme producing gene that is at best unknown and worst capable of causing significant disease just because I wanted to do better in the ring. Breeding isn't for pussies.