Maremmas In Show.

[zoiboy]

He makes an interesting admission at the beginning. " .. down that path we've learnt a lot, we've made a lot of mistakes, and I'm still not sure that we're doing everything as well as we possibly can and there's still a lot to learn as well."

So you have not made any mistakes or had any learning curves that were not always what you expected or hoped?

He treats his dogs like chattell, they're expendable, what else would anyone expect!

no i do not believe he treats the dogs like chattels at all. They are trusted and much needed working dogs, they protect his livelyhood. What on earth is wrong with that?

Whereas my puppy owners say things like: "Lumen is all that we hoped for and more. He has a great personality - fantastic family dog and working dog. Out in the vineyard, everyone that visits our cellar door falls in love with him!" 15/10.2010. Ponda Estate wines

i have a few puppy buyers who say things like this as well. I also have puppy buyers who tell me how much the dog has saved them in money time and sheer emotional stress just by doing what they are bred to do. Thats what I like to know.

Anyway you miss the point entirely.

Noone can say that culling the pups removes the gene, yet; other genes are being removed with them.

That is simply reckless.

I doubt I'll be quoting him any further.

i did n ot believe for a moment that you would like him. shame that you are not listening to the SCIENCE in his presentation and in the presentation by Lee Allen from Biosecurity Queensland. Lots of science behind them both actually.

Umm, do you know how to quote? lol.

But thanks for the video, despite how people are trying cast aspersions on me I am not a complete dullard, and I think people know that which is why I get the pointy end so often.

Actually NO I have no clue how to quote, and little interest in learning to be honest. not big on my *must be able to do* list.

[zoiboy]

I didn't paint their nose red. The dog came out like that.

I've heard no castigation of the two breeders from where the bitch and dog were sourced by any of the respondents who are too willing to jump on the band wagon.

I think that's a bit prejudicial, don't you?

Not at all prejudicial. You bought a bitch and then a dog in good faith. You found that

they will produce depigmented pups. You kept breeding knowing that some are going to be

depigmented. Your choice, but not nessarly what either breeder you purchased a pup from would

do?

[Tralee]

Umm, do you know how to quote? lol.

But thanks for the video, despite how people are trying cast aspersions on me I am not a complete dullard, and I think people know that which is why I get the pointy end so often.

Actually NO I have no clue how to quote, and little interest in learning to be honest. not big on my *must be able to do* list.

Well its easy.

Just make sure the end quote has a slash in it. /

Like this [/quoit]

EG

[Are You Serious Jo]

LOL, tralee is attempting to train me :laugh: I am baffled that anyone breeds knowing the gene for enzyme deficiency is present, that goes for the breeders who you got your dogs from and anyone else. As has been said, no one is having a go at you for having those dogs but it's what you choose to do knowing they have a health problem that matters. So what if thyroid problems are in some, that is not the topic we are discussing, we are talking about light noses.

State doesn't really matter, plenty of UV rays down south as well. Backing up an argument with impartial facts is not a witch hunt, it's what scientists do. If I shows data relating to higher incidences of melanoma in light nose dogs will you then conceded that it is a problem? You've said there is no proof, what if I find some?

[Tralee]

LOL, tralee is attempting to train me :laugh: I am baffled that anyone breeds knowing the gene for enzyme deficiency is present, that goes for the breeders who you got your dogs from and anyone else. As has been said, no one is having a go at you for having those dogs but it's what you choose to do knowing they have a health problem that matters. So what if thyroid problems are in some, that is not the topic we are discussing, we are talking about light noses.

State doesn't really matter, plenty of UV rays down south as well. Backing up an argument with impartial facts is not a witch hunt, it's what scientists do. If I shows data relating to higher incidences of melanoma in light nose dogs will you then conceded that it is a problem? You've said there is no proof, what if I find some?

Purely conjecture at this stage, unfortunately.

Even steve only has heresay at best.

Since you are throwing down the gauntlet then you will concede if Lumen lives to 15-17 without any health issues whatsoever?

[casowner]

LOL, tralee is attempting to train me :laugh: I am baffled that anyone breeds knowing the gene for enzyme deficiency is present, that goes for the breeders who you got your dogs from and anyone else. As has been said, no one is having a go at you for having those dogs but it's what you choose to do knowing they have a health problem that matters. So what if thyroid problems are in some, that is not the topic we are discussing, we are talking about light noses.

State doesn't really matter, plenty of UV rays down south as well. Backing up an argument with impartial facts is not a witch hunt, it's what scientists do. If I shows data relating to higher incidences of melanoma in light nose dogs will you then conceded that it is a problem? You've said there is no proof, what if I find some?

Purely conjecture at this stage, unfortunately.

Even steve only has heresay at best.

Since you are throwing down the gauntlet then you will concede if Lumen lives to 15-17 without any health issues whatsoever?

Wow that is a big call especially since I don't think you even gave Lumen's current age but even I know that one dog does not make fact when it comes to health issues

[Are You Serious Jo]

What happens if I do find data on it? Have you even done a vet lit search? If Lumen lives to 15-17 I'll be shocked a large dog could get to that age :laugh: That proves nothing anyway because it just proves that one dog didn't get melanoma for whatever reason. One thing you need to do with research is not rely on anecdotes, an example of one dog is no indication of what happens to the population as a whole. That is why people do research, to eliminate false assumptions based on anecdotes. I thought you did some science at uni, how come you don't know that?

[Tralee]

I didn't paint their nose red. The dog came out like that.

I've heard no castigation of the two breeders from where the bitch and dog were sourced by any of the respondents who are too willing to jump on the band wagon.

I think that's a bit prejudicial, don't you?

Not at all prejudicial. You bought a bitch and then a dog in good faith. You found that

they will produce depigmented pups. You kept breeding knowing that some are going to be

depigmented. Your choice, but not nessarly what either breeder you purchased a pup from would

do?

Well you don't know how I think or the advice I was given.

You are not being fair or impartial.

You apply one standard to Hughenden and another to me

" .. down that path we've learnt a lot, we've made a lot of mistakes, and I'm still not sure that we're doing everything as well as we possibly can and there's still a lot to learn as well."

You know this is not how things work.

We don't go about trying to entrap people and then make dubious claims about them in order to disparage and villify.

In fact, that's illegal.

What we who are more enlightened do is: facilitate, assist and develop.

You seem to overlook the fact that you have history with me, and you think you can simply disregard it.

I suggest you change your tact.

[Tralee]

What happens if I do find data on it? Have you even done a vet lit search? If Lumen lives to 15-17 I'll be shocked a large dog could get to that age :laugh: That proves nothing anyway because it just proves that one dog didn't get melanoma for whatever reason. One thing you need to do with research is not rely on anecdotes, an example of one dog is no indication of what happens to the population as a whole. That is why people do research, to eliminate false assumptions based on anecdotes. I thought you did some science at uni, how come you don't know that?

If you are going to make 'ad hominem' arguments and fill the post with self congratulatory aggrandisement then I won't reply.

[Tralee]

LOL, tralee is attempting to train me :laugh: I am baffled that anyone breeds knowing the gene for enzyme deficiency is present, that goes for the breeders who you got your dogs from and anyone else. As has been said, no one is having a go at you for having those dogs but it's what you choose to do knowing they have a health problem that matters. So what if thyroid problems are in some, that is not the topic we are discussing, we are talking about light noses.

State doesn't really matter, plenty of UV rays down south as well. Backing up an argument with impartial facts is not a witch hunt, it's what scientists do. If I shows data relating to higher incidences of melanoma in light nose dogs will you then conceded that it is a problem? You've said there is no proof, what if I find some?

Purely conjecture at this stage, unfortunately.

Even steve only has heresay at best.

Since you are throwing down the gauntlet then you will concede if Lumen lives to 15-17 without any health issues whatsoever?

Wow that is a big call especially since I don't think you even gave Lumen's current age but even I know that one dog does not make fact when it comes to health issues

Not one dog at all.

I can cite innumerable dogs in Italy that have similarly survived.

I think that is unequivocally statistically significant.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Tralee

[Are You Serious Jo]

What we who are more enlightened do is: facilitate, assist and develop.

I'm attempting the above with you. You said there is no proof that lack of pigment is correlated with higher risk of cancer right? I'm helping you by giving you some information that will assist you in making breeding decisions.

[Tralee]

What we who are more enlightened do is: facilitate, assist and develop.

I'm attempting the above with you. You said there is no proof that lack of pigment is correlated with higher risk of cancer right? I'm helping you by giving you some information that will assist you in making breeding decisions.

Then I hope you take note of my reply to behluka.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Tralee

[Are You Serious Jo]

What have you proved? We are talking about cancer due to lowered pigment. I never said all dogs will get it and be dead by three. It's about the increased risk to dogs with lighter noses. You do realise that melanin is directly associated with the risk of cancer in many species don't you?

[Are You Serious Jo]

Not dogs but an example in other animals, more when I get them.

"Solar radiation is an etiological factor in squamous cell carcinoma in the ears and nose of white cats, on the perineum and ears of Angora goats in Africa, and on the eyelids of cattle (" cancer eye ")."

E. WEISS I & K. FRESE, Bull. Org. mond. Sante ) 1974, 50, Tumours of the skin* Budl. Wid Fifth Org. 79-100, VII.

I'm going through getting the search terms right for the veterinary literature.

[BlackJaq]

I think you are wasting your time trying to get Tralee to admit he is wrong about anything. It appears his own opinion and anecdotes are enough evidence to him to disregard anything else, even statements with scientific backing :p

[Are You Serious Jo]

At least others reading know we are not talking out our bottoms and it is an important health issue to consider. Even if sun wasn't an issue the fact is dogs with depigmentation have an underlying enzyme disorder and that alone should be enough to take it seriously!

[mixeduppup]

This thread has gone from the 'Maremmas in show' to the 'Tralee show'. I might change the channel for a while. :laugh:

[zoiboy]

You are not being fair or impartial.

You apply one standard to Hughenden and another to me

" .. down that path we've learnt a lot, we've made a lot of mistakes, and I'm still not sure that we're doing everything as well as we possibly can and there's still a lot to learn as well."

You know this is not how things work.

It's not? Gee it's the way I learn stuff. If I make a mistake I do TRY to learn from it and not make that particular mistake again. I must be missing some thing in my uneducated state.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Since the depigmnentation seems to be analogous or maybe even homologous to snow nose/collie nose the abstract below points out the risk. I think the point has been made and if tralee has any doubts he can go check and see if he can find anything that says that solar damage doesn't occur on lighter noses. There are also cases where the depigmentation is a result of autoimmune disease.

"Basal cell epitheliomas and squamous cell carcinomas are common in dogs and cats. Their biologic behavior appears to be comparable to that of their human counterparts.

Nasal solar dermatitis (collie nose) and feline solar dermatitis are conditions in which hereditary-anatomic factors may predispose to intensive actinic damage and the eventual development of squamous cell carcinoma. The pathogenesis of both entities is reminiscent of that of xeroderma pigmentosa of man. Nasal solar dermatitis and feline solar dermatitis could serve as excellent models for the study of spontaneous carcinogenesis."]

Basal Cell Epithelioma and Squamous Cell Carcinoma in Animals, George H. Muller, DVM, Arch Dermatol. 1967;96(4):386-389.

[Steve]

I cant build a fence like that on my property even though Ive got lots of acres and sheep - definitely couldnt do it in town either - because in NSW electric fences cant be used near dogs as its against POCTAA and Id go a mile for cruelty as my sheep always have dogs with them.

Also might be an idea to swap from plastic bowls to stainless steel as sometimes the chemicals in plastic bowls cause lightening of the nose.

So are you saying the fence is illegal without knowing the voltage and misquoting the law?

The law states that the electric thread must be 15mm off the fence.

Can't have it both ways.

Tralee all I know of this is that I spoke with the RSPCA and I was advised that I couldnt install an electric fence of any description if my dogs were going to be exposed to it - so on my property I cant have an electric fence. Im not going to argue with them because I dont want anything which may impact on my ability to do what I do.If you are certain you fit within the prevention of Cruelty to Animals legislation good for you but I wouldn't have one here.I believe Rozzie went for an electric fence when it wasnt even turned on. I have looked up the law but not recently but have no recollection of any notations of it having to be 15 mm from anything within that legislation.