Maremmas In Show.

[Tralee]

I have Maremmas & I'm struggling to see your point - what, they should be bigger? more coat? cos that's all I see from the pics - nobody here has the chance to put hands on or observe these dogs

Well, I see a lot more than that.

Bigger yes, but also almond shaped eyes, excellent feathering on the legs and tail, smaller ears, absence of a snippy head, elimination of an undulating lip, and more.

My point is very well reinforced by what the Italians are producing and have been producing for over a decade.

"We have not kept pace with the Italians who are producing dogs that are, far and beyond, superior to our dogs. They win BIS at internationals for crissakes. On their day athey are the best dogs in the world."

Best in the world at what? Turning up at a dog show? Superior, how exactly - do they work better than our dogs do?

I (excuse the expression) don't give a fast one what you think the "Internationals" are doing & where they might be doing it (whatever "it" may be??) - I care that we have breeders, here in Australia, that are doing the very best they can to produce a sound, hardy working dog that truly represents the standard & is capable of doing what the breed originally, ought to do.

Well I courteously reply to your question although I don't give a fast one for your tone.

Dogs in Italy have been restored to their ancient roles of protecting livestock against bears, wolves, foxes and thieves.

The conservation efforts around the areas where Maremma are employed have resulted in the return of bears, wolves and foxes in greater numbers. The Maremma is more in demand to work livestock not less.

The fact that here in Australia the breed has been coopted to work out of situ does not place the dog into its correct context and as you put it: "truly represent the standard & is capable of doing what the breed originally, ought to do."

If the breeders here want to produce a sub-breed, fine.

I like the Italian dogs over what has and is being produced here, and I know for a fact I am not alone.

I side with the dogs, its not personal.

That is my prerogative.

To each his own.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Tralee

[myValkyrie]

Well I courteously reply to your question although I don't give a fast one for your tone.

You're quite right - the tone was not nice and for that, I do apologise. It was an uncalled for response to your dismissive attitude to others - just because their opinion differs from yours, does not mean they don't have something of value to contribute.

Dogs in Italy have been restored to their ancient roles of protecting livestock against bears, wolves, foxes and thieves.

The conservation efforts around the areas where Maremma are employed have resulted in the return of bears, wolves and foxes in greater numbers. The Maremma is more in demand to work livestock not less.

The fact that here in Australia the breed has been coopted to work out of situ does not place the dog into its correct context and as you put it: "truly represent the standard & is capable of doing what the breed originally, ought to do."

Are you saying a dog that works well - performing the same function (sans bears/wolves but add in wild dogs/eagles) - in Australia, rather than Italy, is not "placed into its correct context"?

If the breeders here want to produce a sub-breed, fine.

I like the Italian dogs over what has and is being produced here, and I know for a fact I am not alone.

I side with the dogs, its not personal.

That is my prerogative.

To each his own.

Of course it is your perogative to prefer one type of dog over another - fairly certain nobody said you could not. It is not however, necessary to cast aspersions on the quality of Australian dogs, or the objectives and direction of their breeders whilst you do that. I also don't understand why you have enormous faith in the international showring to discern quality animals yet doubt the same process here.

I do not agree that the Maremma in Australia has become, or is in danger of becoming, a "sub-breed" and I think it's very sad that you, as a breeder, do.

[Clyde]

I have Maremmas & I'm struggling to see your point - what, they should be bigger? more coat? cos that's all I see from the pics - nobody here has the chance to put hands on or observe these dogs

Well, I see a lot more than that.

Bigger yes, but also almond shaped eyes, excellent feathering on the legs and tail, smaller ears, absence of a snippy head, elimination of an undulating lip, and more.

My point is very well reinforced by what the Italians are producing and have been producing for over a decade.

"We have not kept pace with the Italians who are producing dogs that are, far and beyond, superior to our dogs. They win BIS at internationals for crissakes. On their day athey are the best dogs in the world."

Best in the world at what? Turning up at a dog show? Superior, how exactly - do they work better than our dogs do?

I (excuse the expression) don't give a fast one what you think the "Internationals" are doing & where they might be doing it (whatever "it" may be??) - I care that we have breeders, here in Australia, that are doing the very best they can to produce a sound, hardy working dog that truly represents the standard & is capable of doing what the breed originally, ought to do.

Well I courteously reply to your question although I don't give a fast one for your tone.

Dogs in Italy have been restored to their ancient roles of protecting livestock against bears, wolves, foxes and thieves.

The conservation efforts around the areas where Maremma are employed have resulted in the return of bears, wolves and foxes in greater numbers. The Maremma is more in demand to work livestock not less.

The fact that here in Australia the breed has been coopted to work out of situ does not place the dog into its correct context and as you put it: "truly represent the standard & is capable of doing what the breed originally, ought to do."

If the breeders here want to produce a sub-breed, fine.

I like the Italian dogs over what has and is being produced here, and I know for a fact I am not alone.

I side with the dogs, its not personal.

That is my prerogative.

To each his own.

Your whole argument is incredibly hypocritical as your dogs are pets, not working dogs. Taking them out for a visit to a farm every so often does not make them a working dog.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Maybe you'd be happier moving to Italy tralee.

[Steve]

All I see is a group of Italian show breeders buggering it up. If what you say is true then why do you think there are Italians who are breeding dogs which do work who are upset about what is happening in the ring?

Im happy for you to go after fixing what you feel is lacking in the breeding such as improving the eye shape etc but you cant just compromise on everything else to get that .

If I get to a point where I no longer want to breed registered ANKC dogs because I and other working dog breeders dont want to breed pink nosed sick dogs that cant work because they are too fat and whimpy even if they have nice almond shaped eyes Im sure most people reading this will understand why.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Steve

[dog_fan]

Well I courteously reply to your question although I don't give a fast one for your tone.

You're quite right - the tone was not nice and for that, I do apologise. It was an uncalled for response to your dismissive attitude to others - just because their opinion differs from yours, does not mean they don't have something of value to contribute.

Dogs in Italy have been restored to their ancient roles of protecting livestock against bears, wolves, foxes and thieves.

The conservation efforts around the areas where Maremma are employed have resulted in the return of bears, wolves and foxes in greater numbers. The Maremma is more in demand to work livestock not less.

The fact that here in Australia the breed has been coopted to work out of situ does not place the dog into its correct context and as you put it: "truly represent the standard & is capable of doing what the breed originally, ought to do."

Are you saying a dog that works well - performing the same function (sans bears/wolves but add in wild dogs/eagles) - in Australia, rather than Italy, is not "placed into its correct context"?

If the breeders here want to produce a sub-breed, fine.

I like the Italian dogs over what has and is being produced here, and I know for a fact I am not alone.

I side with the dogs, its not personal.

That is my prerogative.

To each his own.

Of course it is your perogative to prefer one type of dog over another - fairly certain nobody said you could not. It is not however, necessary to cast aspersions on the quality of Australian dogs, or the objectives and direction of their breeders whilst you do that. I also don't understand why you have enormous faith in the international showring to discern quality animals yet doubt the same process here.

I do not agree that the Maremma in Australia has become, or is in danger of becoming, a "sub-breed" and I think it's very sad that you, as a breeder, do.

I find a lot that is said by this breeder to be concerning, and to think this is a public forum where anyone can see these responses. I just hope anyone wanting information about Maremma do not take this breeders opinion as a reliable source.

Edited May 1, 2013 by dog_fan

[Rebanne]

I've asked Tralee, on more then one occasion, if he has ever seen these Italian dogs he fawns over in the flesh, but he has never answered. I can only conclude that everything he parrots has come off the internet. Some outlandish claims have been made about the temperament of dogs from UK and USA but again he failed to declare where he learnt such things. I second dog_fans concerns.

Edited May 1, 2013 by Rebanne

[BlackJaq]

Your whole argument is incredibly hypocritical as your dogs are pets, not working dogs. Taking them out for a visit to a farm every so often does not make them a working dog.

Can't help but agree. I am interested in a working dog who can do his job. I don't intend on leaving the dog to fend for himself but rather he will live around the house paddocks protecting poultry, sheep and goats. That makes me a potential buyer of a dog required to fulfil his traditional role, as Tralee has described it? Including human supervision and family contact?

However, the dog will most certainly not sleep inside, since night time is when I loose most of my stock (mostly poultry). Building entirely fox proof housing may work if you have 5 or 10 birds, but once you have a flock of large birds like geese, 15-20 or more, you will want to keep them paddocked like sheep, with some natural shelter such as wind breaks and shade trees, rather than a fully enclosed shed. If I had a way of fox proofing the entire property I would not need the dog....

I am a little confused that a city dweller would be claiming to breed suitable working dogs, despite never actually having worked them and seeing no issue with lack of pigmentation, excessive coats which may shed badly in hot climates and larger sizes for the size alone, potentially increasing feeding requirements (a cost factor that I think will figure in any farmer's calculation) and maybe even issues found in other heavy large breeds, such as dysplasia, early onset arthiritis etc.

I am also confused as other are, in how the appearance of the Italian dogs makes them a superior worker in Australian conditions. Would be nice to have a slightly more detailed and less snipey response...

Edited May 2, 2013 by BlackJaq

[mixeduppup]

It sounds like Tralee wants a white version of the Pyr. I love the Aussie version of the maremmas and they look a lot like the Italian version imho. I'm yet to read anywhere else but here in Tralee's posts to back up his claims that these big bulky dogs with almond eyes are in fact being bred in Italy and if they are, so be it. We have our Australian strain, just like America has their own strain. Dogs will naturally evolve to suit the environment they're working in but it doesn't make them any less of a maremma. Having a huge woolly dog wit fading nose in the hot Australian summer on a sheep property is not ideal.

Edited May 2, 2013 by mixeduppup

[Are You Serious Jo]

He wants a dog that he thinks will win in the ring ahead of a dog suitable to work in our climate, but keeps saying working ability is critical, eating cake and all that. We've seen that dogs can work and do well in the ring from other exhibitor's examples so why he is obsessed with the heavy Italian dogs is beyond me.

[mixeduppup]

He wants a dog that he thinks will win in the ring ahead of a dog suitable to work in our climate, but keeps saying working ability is critical, eating cake and all that. We've seen that dogs can work and do well in the ring from other exhibitor's examples so why he is obsessed with the heavy Italian dogs is beyond me.

Do his dogs work?

[Are You Serious Jo]

No.

[zoiboy]

He wants a dog that he thinks will win in the ring ahead of a dog suitable to work in our climate, but keeps saying working ability is critical, eating cake and all that. We've seen that dogs can work and do well in the ring from other exhibitor's examples so why he is obsessed with the heavy Italian dogs is beyond me.

Lets play devils advicate for a minuite. tralee wants the heavy *Italian type* of dog to win in the ring. He also seems to want an OVER PROTECTIVE dog on his lead. Interesting combination this, in my mind.

As a breeder, I want nice correct sound dogs with a ballanced outlook. I do hip, elbow, eye and thyriod testing on any I

am dreaming of breeding with. If they pass then and only then I breed when it is going to fit in with the rest of my life.

So far I have bred 4 litters and have been very happy with the resulting pups. I keep in touch with my poopie buyers and

help if needed with advice.

I happen to have an Italian dog (from lines that tralee admires so much) and while he is a fair size dog he is not the 80 kilo size range that some speak of. Far from it in fact. Having been to Italy and seen a few dogs while I was there I am not sure we are so far away from what the Italians are breeding. I am sure that for most of the year they have 3 or 4 times the amount of coat simply due to the weather. I think it is time to look at the dog UNDER all that hair really.

All that said, for me personally it's all about ballance and working ability is a big part of that ballance.

Now this is one of my last litter, Rusty is not only learning to be safe with our sheep but she is also learning to be a happy polite member of our little bit of the world.

So what would the members here ike to see in their breeder?

[Are You Serious Jo]

I know this is going to sound like I'm brown nosing but from your posts your attitude is what I like to see in a LGD breeder. As you said, the key to it all is balance.

[zoiboy]

I know this is going to sound like I'm brown nosing but from your posts your attitude is what I like to see in a LGD breeder. As you said, the key to it all is balance.

:rofl: I should just let you brown nose a lot. BUT I am aware that is not how you mean to sound (or i hope it's not how you want to sound :laugh: ).

all the way thu this thread you have been a voice of reason and common sence. Like you I do not wish to sound like I am brown noseing either. It has been nice to watch many members *say* what I am thinking tho

[myValkyrie]

All I see is a group of Italian show breeders buggering it up. If what you say is true then why do you think there are Italians who are breeding dogs which do work who are upset about what is happening in the ring?

Im happy for you to go after fixing what you feel is lacking in the breeding such as improving the eye shape etc but you cant just compromise on everything else to get that .

If I get to a point where I no longer want to breed registered ANKC dogs because I and other working dog breeders dont want to breed pink nosed sick dogs that cant work because they are too fat and whimpy even if they have nice almond shaped eyes Im sure most people reading this will understand why.

He wants a dog that he thinks will win in the ring ahead of a dog suitable to work in our climate, but keeps saying working ability is critical, eating cake and all that. We've seen that dogs can work and do well in the ring from other exhibitor's examples so why he is obsessed with the heavy Italian dogs is beyond me.

Lets play devils advicate for a minuite. tralee wants the heavy *Italian type* of dog to win in the ring. He also seems to want an OVER PROTECTIVE dog on his lead. Interesting combination this, in my mind.

As a breeder, I want nice correct sound dogs with a ballanced outlook. I do hip, elbow, eye and thyriod testing on any I

am dreaming of breeding with. If they pass then and only then I breed when it is going to fit in with the rest of my life.

So far I have bred 4 litters and have been very happy with the resulting pups. I keep in touch with my poopie buyers and

help if needed with advice.

I happen to have an Italian dog (from lines that tralee admires so much) and while he is a fair size dog he is not the 80 kilo size range that some speak of. Far from it in fact. Having been to Italy and seen a few dogs while I was there I am not sure we are so far away from what the Italians are breeding. I am sure that for most of the year they have 3 or 4 times the amount of coat simply due to the weather. I think it is time to look at the dog UNDER all that hair really.

All that said, for me personally it's all about ballance and working ability is a big part of that ballance.

Now this is one of my last litter, Rusty is not only learning to be safe with our sheep but she is also learning to be a happy polite member of our little bit of the world.

So what would the members here ike to see in their breeder?

I like both Steve's & Zoiboy's thoughts and approach regarding the type of Maremma they are aiming to produce - I appreciate the understanding of balance and compromise.

[BlackJaq]

Personally I would look for a breeder who is not only willing to share any advice they can, but who also has actual experience in the working field.

It is one thing to say "this is how I am told it is done" and another entirely to be able to explain how the breeder personally has trained their dogs to guard stock and how they have dealt with issues.

Since I would be looking for a working dog primarily, not a show dog or even a personal pet, I would expect a breeder to do all in their power to insure the dogs are healthy and fit for the intended purpose. Nobody can guarantee that their pups will be %100 healthy, but recognizing that some faults are a major detriment to the dog's working ability and culling stock exhibiting such flaws from their breeding program is more important to me than a dog whose appearance conforms %100 to the standard. I'd rather have a round-eyed dog with an undulating lip, but also a well shedding coat and full nose pigmentation working with my poultry than a dog that has won a thousand Championships under international judges.

I personally have no experience at all with LGDs apart from going out of my way to meet a relatively new breeder and her dogs in my local area, so I fully expect that I would need a lot of support from my potential breeder and I would hope that they would bear with me and not get overly annoyed at lengthy phone calls, emails and silly photos of their dog wearing Christmas antlers and participating in other non work related family endeavours. I would also be unlikely to be attending any shows with their pup and hope that this would not bother them overly as the dog is going to a working home, not a show one.

Reading this thread really made me see some clear differences between what I perceive to be a good Maremma breeder and what I perceive to be a poor one. I don't think I need to point out which I found to be the poor one and if I have no luck finding a working dog through rescue (since I have already registered my interest I will be waiting to hear back first) I would definitely be contacting other breeders in this thread who have displayed greater dedication to the breed's actual purpose, apart from showing and winning the all important Champion sash

[Are You Serious Jo]

No brown nosing (see what I did there :laugh: )

[BlackJaq]

Indeed! :laugh:

I also didn't think I needed to name names if you know what I mean

Edited May 2, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Are You Serious Jo]

Phew, never know if you are going to get a tough crowd :laugh: