Maremmas In Show.

[Tralee]

I've never seen a liver maremma

No, quite correct, but on a dog forum there has to be a common language.

Between totally depigmented and black there is pele rosa.

The skin is completely pink too.

I didn't introduce the term liver in relation to Maremma it was mentioned by another DOLer who helped out during another thread.

I've had one and despite the concerns about breeding they are quite striking.

Sometimes I called her Monte Carlo like the Arnott's biscuit.

[Are You Serious Jo]

That one doesn't have black eye rims and a light nose at an early age so what is going on there?

[myValkyrie]

Working temperament, not an issue!

Just sayin'

Genuine question - how does this photo display correct working temperament?

[myValkyrie]

Pink nose, "out of" Rampone and Orsa.

Not a show dog and working!

Just one example of many.

Just sayin'

Wow - you know, I have seen a lot of Maremmas but until this thread, I have never seen one with a pink nose. I have seen one with pink eyerims (rescue puppy that arrived with a severe eye infection), I thought the infection had left scarring (her eyerims are patchy pink & black) as her nose, pads, nails & most of her skin is black but perhaps she would never have developed proper pigmentation anyway?

[BlackJaq]

That Maremma has blue eyes and indeed, it appears to have liver skin. In my mind this seem to make pure breed status somewhat questionable, but not impossible, since liver is recessive... Both parents must have carried it.

Makes the previous violent reaction to the attempts to distinguish between liver skin and badly pigmented black skin look a bit silly, no?

Edited April 20, 2013 by BlackJaq

[mixeduppup]

That Maremma has blue eyes and indeed, it appears to have liver skin. In my mind this seem to make pure breed status somewhat questionable, but not impossible, since liver is recessive... Both parents must have carried it.

Makes the previous violent reaction to the attempts to distinguish between liver skin and badly pigmented black skin look a bit silly, no?

my thoughts too. his fur also isn't the typical white

[Are You Serious Jo]

I don't know anything about dilute genes in Maremmas, so that's a genuine dilute?

[BlackJaq]

No liver is a base colour. Dilute liver gives you Weimaraner grey/brown. Dilute black gives you blue. I think Maremmas might be genetically EE, not sure what their dilute colour would be? There was a thread on this somewhere with links to colour DNA webites...

ETA: Would be interesting to see this dog as an adult, I don't think I have seen a liver dog with a coat this shade before, the closest that comes to my mind would be red merle dogs, but they are not solid like this? Although the patches in that colour tend to change a bit within the first few months of life, hence seeing the dog as an adult might be interesting...

Edited April 20, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Are You Serious Jo]

Ahhh, I remember now that it is a base colour, I've read the dilutes from bases before but completely forgot. I'll go do some googling because my brain is empty :laugh:

[Tralee]

That Maremma has blue eyes and indeed, it appears to have liver skin. In my mind this seem to make pure breed status somewhat questionable, but not impossible, since liver is recessive... Both parents must have carried it.

Makes the previous violent reaction to the attempts to distinguish between liver skin and badly pigmented black skin look a bit silly, no?

my thoughts too. his fur also isn't the typical white

You are talking about the pup on the grooming table.

He is very young, about 5-6 weeks old.

Pups have blue eyes that turn darker.

And he needs a bath, his coat is pure white.

Here he is at home, when he was older

[Are You Serious Jo]

Looks like the genes involved haven't been identified but some other white coat black pigment dogs are e/e and a/a with a possible unknown modifier. So what the pup that appears liver is is anybody's guess.

[espinay2]

As mentioned it is NOT liver. Best way to describe it is a black that is 'incomplete'. As Steve mentioned it is enzyme related. Pigment is genetically black, but is poorly expressed and 'faded' making it look brownish or pink. Please don't confuse this.

Edited April 20, 2013 by espinay2

[Are You Serious Jo]

I understand that, but I'm talking about the pup that appeared to have lack of pigment around the eye rims and a light nose at a young age. What is happening there? Is it just that they have a more severe degree of the enzyme disorder?

[Steve]

I understand that, but I'm talking about the pup that appeared to have lack of pigment around the eye rims and a light nose at a young age. What is happening there? Is it just that they have a more severe degree of the enzyme disorder?

More research will need to be done to test this but for me it looks awful, it impacts on what conditions the dogs can work in and it potentially leads to some very serious health issues as the dogs age. I understand I am emotionally involved in this and Im trying to control thinking with my heart and love of the breed over my head but no matter which way I try to look at this I cannot understand why it isnt considered a biggy and it can not be overlooked in the name of going after a desired type. i do not want to breed dogs which have a limited working ability or a lack of pigment and if this is able to continue all registered dog's pedigrees in the breed will be contaminated with this if they are not now. My pups are born with very dark blue eyes but they are brown way before 5 weeks of age.

[Steve]

This at 8 weeks

[Are You Serious Jo]

Do you think it could be a more severe form the enzyme disorder to be so unpigmented at that age?

[Tralee]

Oh, for chrys sake.

I didn't put the bloody gene there.

I only have dogs that were produced by others.

I haven't bred with the damn dogs but I didn't cull them either.

And I defy anybody to find a better home than the one I found for Lumen.

The owners are quite 'au fait' about his colouring, and have been ecstatic over his temperament, appearance and working ability.

There have been no reports of ill health since we were in contact less than a month ago.

I have to decide between what the Fathers of the Breed are doing and the unproven conjectures and projections of dogs in the new world.

Sure dogs have issues, but correlation is not causation.

And, NONE of my dogs have had any issues.

You should be pocking the stick at those who have "affected" dogs and asking them questions about where they got them from.

Lesson learned here: The less said the better.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I don't get why you don't see a greatly increased risk of melamona in a dog that has to live outside a problem, it directly impacts on working ability. The correlation between sun exposure and melanoma is very well know, don't you believe the research? It's like putting a fair red head out on the beach every day without sunscreen, problems won't show up till a bit later in life but you can bet that poor bugger will be riddled with skin cancer.

[Steve]

Oh, for chrys sake.

I didn't put the bloody gene there.

I only have dogs that were produced by others.

I haven't bred with the damn dogs but I didn't cull them either.

And I defy anybody to find a better home than the one I found for Lumen.

The owners are quite 'au fait' about his colouring, and have been ecstatic over his temperament, appearance and working ability.

There have been no reports of ill health since we were in contact less than a month ago.

I have to decide between what the Fathers of the Breed are doing and the unproven conjectures and projections of dogs in the new world.

Sure dogs have issues, but correlation is not causation.

And, NONE of my dogs have had any issues.

You should be pocking the stick at those who have "affected" dogs and asking them questions about where they got them from.

Lesson learned here: The less said the better.

Tralee - the issue for me isnt that YOU didnt breed the parent dogs or that YOU have bred one. The issue is that ALL of us need to try to steer away from it and clearly some are not - and that it is a biggy.

You are not being beaten up because you bred a pup with less pigment - or at least that's not by me .My concern is your comments as if you shrug it off and I know that some breeders are not doing what is required to breed away from in it as they seek a championship. I know of one litter born with this lack of pigment where half the litter showed this and all of the pups were put out as breeding dogs. Mum and Dad presumably carry it and every pup in the litter may also carry it without showing it and I am pointing a stick at them. You just happen to be here telling me its no big deal.

All of us have to decide what the breeders in the country of origin of the breed or any breeder are doing and whether we want to blindly follow - historically not all breeds have faired well under the progressive decisions made by the "fathers" of the breed in their country of origin once the show ring has become a primary focus - so just because the Italians have gone one way doesnt make it that we should just not question what is happening.

[Steve]

Great example of working temperament and an acceptance of what is normal.

http://www.standard.net.au/story/1447207/big-rise-in-little-penguins/?cs=383