Maremmas In Show.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Ahhh, I see. Obviously then it should be taken for what it is, an attempt to rectify an issue ignored for a bit rather than proclaim that those dogs are overall excellent.

[Tralee]

il risultato di tanti anni di passione e amore per una splendida ed antica razza italiana ...omogeneitả carattere tipicitả.

ringrazio in modo particolare quelle persone che hanno contribuito negli anni a realizzare il mio sogno, aiutandomi a raggiungere questi risultati

Translation:

"The result of many years of passion and love for a splendid, old Italian breed. Homogeneity, Character and Type.

Thankyou, particulalry those persons over the years who have contributed to the realisation of my dream, those who helped me reach this result." end translation.

There you have it, none of us are going to get there alone.

It can only be done, together.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

Pink nose, "out of" Rampone and Orsa.

Not a show dog and working!

Just one example of many.

Just sayin'

Edited April 18, 2013 by Tralee

[Are You Serious Jo]

Don't be kennel blind, a serious fault on an otherwise good dog doesn't diminish the seriousness of the fault. How would that dog go working here? A dead dog isn't much use in the paddock or the ring.

[Tralee]

Working temperament, not an issue!

Just sayin'

Edited April 18, 2013 by Tralee

[Are You Serious Jo]

I see a dog shying away, precisely what the Italians wrote was not acceptable.

[espinay2]

Breeding a problem is not a crime. What is important though is what you do then. Recognizing the issue then working to eliminate it is way better than defending and trying to justify it.

[Rebanne]

I see a dog shying away, precisely what the Italians wrote was not acceptable.

looks pretty scared to me

[Tralee]

Breeding a problem is not a crime. What is important though is what you do then. Recognizing the issue then working to eliminate it is way better than defending and trying to justify it.

I make observations.

What is there, is there for all to see.

I don't over extrapolate to create issues that don't exist.

Much is conjecture and wishful projection, based on correlation that remains unproven.

All the data is not in and may not be in for some time.

It is simple folly to make judgements, rulings and condemnations when no evidential case can be made.

[WreckitWhippet]

Breeding a problem is not a crime. What is important though is what you do then. Recognizing the issue then working to eliminate it is way better than defending and trying to justify it.

I make observations.

What is there, is there for all to see.

I don't over extrapolate to create issues that don't exist.

Much is conjecture and wishful projection, based on correlation that remains unproven.

All the data is not in and may not be in for some time.

It is simple folly to make judgements, rulings and condemnations when no evidential case can be made.

Let me translate that folks. It means bury your head in the sand

[Steve]

Breeding a problem is not a crime. What is important though is what you do then. Recognizing the issue then working to eliminate it is way better than defending and trying to justify it.

I make observations.

What is there, is there for all to see.

I don't over extrapolate to create issues that don't exist.

Much is conjecture and wishful projection, based on correlation that remains unproven.

All the data is not in and may not be in for some time.

It is simple folly to make judgements, rulings and condemnations when no evidential case can be made.

Well thats one way to look at it - I think its simply folly to continue to breed that fault especially knowing the potential for it to be linked with other serious conditions such as hypothyroidism, cancer and a bunch of other things with stacks of evidence to show they are linked to the same enzyme issues that create snow nose and lack of pigment.

[Rottshowgirl]

Breeding a problem is not a crime. What is important though is what you do then. Recognizing the issue then working to eliminate it is way better than defending and trying to justify it.

This *claps*

[espinay2]

Breeding a problem is not a crime. What is important though is what you do then. Recognizing the issue then working to eliminate it is way better than defending and trying to justify it.

This *claps*

I will clarify it one further too and say breeding an UNFORSEEABLE problem. Just for the pedants among us

Edited April 19, 2013 by espinay2

[Are You Serious Jo]

Plenty of data about the correlation of sun exposure and melanoma tralee. If everyone was up in arms about something that didn't affect health or working ability then I'd agree with you, but to be concerned about a fault that can cause premature death if the dog goes about it's purpose then it's something that needs to be eliminated from the gene pool. The faults a dog has can be prioritised from affecting health to not, to claim a curled lip is on par with a snow nose is incorrect. Get the basics right then work on improving conformation. If I was going Maremma rather than Anatolian I'd be pretty worried unless I could view all dogs as far back as possible to make sure snow nose wasn't in there.

[Tralee]

Breeding a problem is not a crime. What is important though is what you do then. Recognizing the issue then working to eliminate it is way better than defending and trying to justify it.

I make observations.

What is there, is there for all to see.

I don't over extrapolate to create issues that don't exist.

Much is conjecture and wishful projection, based on correlation that remains unproven.

All the data is not in and may not be in for some time.

It is simple folly to make judgements, rulings and condemnations when no evidential case can be made.

Well thats one way to look at it - I think its simply folly to continue to breed that fault especially knowing the potential for it to be linked with other serious conditions such as hypothyroidism, cancer and a bunch of other things with stacks of evidence to show they are linked to the same enzyme issues that create snow nose and lack of pigment.

Well, I would like to say I trust your judgement, and I agree with you about a lot of things, but without posting references to the claims you make about some malevolent enzyme then it is just heresay.

And, let it not be said that I have bred a pink nose dog. I have not.

Do the Italians breed pink nose dogs? Well, I don't know but I think they value the gene pool much more highly than those who advocate destroying pink nose pups.

Chalice had a pink nose. Her working ability surpassed the other dogs, her tolerance of strangers when off property was unequalled, and her affection for me outshone the other dogs. I will never accept that a dog with a pink nose has no value.

I think its simply folly to continue to breed that fault especially knowing the potential for it to be linked with other serious conditions

So to date it is only a potential.

Exactly, any dog can get cancer, it is not unique to the Maremma.

And, it still remains to be shown that 'pele rosa' Maremma are predisposed to cancer.

We still have a long way to go with Genetics and dogs are not a high priority.

But what can be proven is that I had a perfectly healthy Maremma bitch who simply had what I expect is a double recessive gene for pigment. No other issues were evident.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Tralee

[Are You Serious Jo]

How does a pink nose dog cope in the Australian sun? Shouldn't the ability to work be the most important trait in the Maremma, what is a Maremma that can't work? If the dog is not fit for purpose then what does it have to contribute to the gene pool? It is well know what happens to pink nose dogs in the sun. How could you ethically put a pink nose dog in the paddock?

[Steve]

for pete's sake Tralee no one is advocating destroying pink nose pups - how on earth did you get to that ?

Im asking - no begging breeders to please breed away from it - that's all. We have seen some diseases in the breed which are known to be associated with the same enzyme deficiency including hypothyroidism that is implicated in pigment and snow nose.

One gene controls more than one trait, or, a single trait might be influenced by a multitude of genes. It is absolute lunacy for a breeder in 2013 to assume that he can selectively deal with individual genes in isolation.

If you select a mating with reference to a particular trait,you are not selecting just for that trait - it is selecting for every single trait located on the same chromosome as the gene controlling the target trait - and of course you are also selecting for all the other traits showing in that particular parent, plus those that are genetically present but not expressed.

By not avoiding the lack of pigment you have no idea what you are playing with and a lack of pigment and any colour but white in the coat is known to be linked to the amino acid tyrosine – which is also linked to several other genetic disorders including hypothyroidism.

No breeder can take the risk of infecting the breed any more especially when its a non desired look anyway at least until much more research is done makes no sense to me. It may not be a biggy for one dog you know of but it is a potential biggy for the breed.

Edited April 19, 2013 by Steve

[BlackJaq]

Just getting back to the colour of the pigment, that dog CLEARLY has black pigment around it eyes, lips and nose, NOT red/liver. I realize I have been blocked but maybe others may be reading this thread and are capable of recognizing a liver dog from a black pigmented one, pink nose or no...

[Are You Serious Jo]

From what the others say you can't get liver in the Maremmas, so all pink and light noses are the result of the enzyme deficiency?

[mixeduppup]

I've never seen a liver maremma