Maremmas In Show.

[Tralee]

Concentrating on the minor fault of pigmentation to the exclusion of other minor faults is just plain and simple bias.

For example, the lip of the dog should be straight not undulating.

Got any dogs in mind that do not have an undulating lip?

Following the argument about pigmentation, dogs with undulating lip should not be used for breeding programs.

Good point isn't it.

I think we may be at an impasse, shouldn't you concede?

Pigment is only ONE thing to be thought of. I actaully START with hips elbows, eye's and thyriod.. This assumes

that I like the pup enough to want to concider him/her in the first place.

Breeding and showing/working is not for the faint of heart and I do it as it's a hobby.

Next the Italian festival..................

Say ciao for me at the Festival.

I would still like to see the undulating lip removed from our dogs

[zoiboy]

Say ciao for me at the Festival.

I would still like to see the undulating lip removed from our dogs

But hips elbows and eye's?????????

I would like to see the deap stop (that tends to go with the droopy lip)

fade away as well. In a perfect world these things would be possible.

[zoiboy]

Quote tralee...

He does have lovely eyes but they are not the solid black or 'castagna' eyes that are so highly prized.

end quote

Check your standard as this boy has Ochra eye's. The standard calls for Ochra to Chestnut Brown.

Those lovely dark eye's are not as correct as they could be.

My personal faveriot dog of all time had those lovely Ochra eye's and he could kill with a look :))

[zoiboy]

Why would this dog or any dog [ Maremma] have more chance of hypothyroidism than any other symptom of a lack of Tryosinase.

Ive never met a Maremma with hypothyroidism but just this week I met another Maremma which had just had a tumor removed which co incidentally had a lack of the correct pigment. The tumor was not on its nose. And yes as already stated humans also have the same issues caused by the same things.

MUP More research is always good and essential if you are ever considering breeding them.

Gee you have been lucky Steve. I have met a few with hypothyriodism, gee I bred one of them. It happens in our breed

and far more often than we would like to admit. The great shame is that there is no test for it really, best we can do

is a blood pannel each year.

[BlackJaq]

So an undulating lip (which causes no medical issues that I can see) is a fault of the same severity as a lack of pigment which can cause various skin issues and diseases? Interesting. Scientist indeed.

[Steve]

Well Im very sorry but I cant for the life of me get anywhere near understanding how you could possibly see the shape of a lip in the same category as lack of pigment .

Its not O.K. to sacrifice something which may have profound impact on the quality of life not just of your dog but others in the breed in order to get a cosmetic adjustment which is so easily fixed in comparison and which doesn't affect health.

Over the past few years Ive had a bit of challenge in eye shape but Im now seeing pups which have exactly what Im looking for but under no condition would I sacrifice any part of the health or how it worked in order to achieve that.I also had a couple turn up early days with those rotten coats but haven't seen it now for about 15 years.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Steve

[Rottshowgirl]

Those people posting one line quips, and not contributing to our discussion about the responsibility of breeding for the betterment of the breed, could you kindly go and try to annoy someone else.

Unless of course, you have something positive to contribute.

Didn't realise that DOL had been changed to TOL *rolly eye guy*

I'm finding these posts really interesting and everyone is contributing in their own way, respectfully, from their own experience.

Differing opinions can, and IMO regarding this thread, are constructive for all those who bother to put their learning hats on. Regardless of whether the post is the length of a tweet or of War & Peace :)

[Are You Serious Jo]

I agree, as LGD showing is really in it's infancy it's important to decide now the path that will be followed to prevent that horrible show/work divide in some breeds.

[Tralee]

Quote tralee...

He does have lovely eyes but they are not the solid black or 'castagna' eyes that are so highly prized.

end quote

Check your standard as this boy has Ochra eye's. The standard calls for Ochra to Chestnut Brown.

Those lovely dark eye's are not as correct as they could be.

My personal faveriot dog of all time had those lovely Ochra eye's and he could kill with a look :))

*cough

castagna nf. chestnut (nut from the chestnut tree)

Translated from Italiana to English

I can't believe I got the spelling right, well, yes I can.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Tralee

[Tralee]

You know, Steve I am getting this great sense of Déjà vu.

We have been over this ground together many times.

My new premise is that we have not kept pace with the Italians and, their dogs are currently, far and beyond, superior.

It is no good being parochial, we may have produced an Australian Maremma, but the conformation of Australian Show dogs should compliment the working trait and vice-versa.

Titled dogs should, and could, be a good barometer for breeding.

On the other hand, I see no reason why a similar protocol to that used with Kelpies could not be applied to other working breeds, particularly Maremmas.

Neither should we overlook the fact that the Italians also have another category for their breeding bitches of Reproductive Champion.

Edited April 18, 2013 by Tralee

[zoiboy]

I agree, as LGD showing is really in it's infancy it's important to decide now the path that will be followed to prevent that horrible show/work divide in some breeds.

I know it seems to be in it's infancy but Rosemary has been breeding for more years than

I can say for sure and all the while she was importing and SHOWING good working dogs.

I would have to chat with her as to what award's her dogs have recieved over the years

as the only one I am sure of is Freya's BEST PUPPY IN SHOW under that nice man from Canada.

[zoiboy]

Quote tralee...

He does have lovely eyes but they are not the solid black or 'castagna' eyes that are so highly prized.

end quote

Check your standard as this boy has Ochra eye's. The standard calls for Ochra to Chestnut Brown.

Those lovely dark eye's are not as correct as they could be.

My personal faveriot dog of all time had those lovely Ochra eye's and he could kill with a look :))

*cough

castagna nf. chestnut (nut from the chestnut tree)

Translated from Italiana to English

I can't believe I got the spelling right, well, yes I can.

oh boy I dfo not speak or write Italian, ya get that, I'm not brilliant with english either.

I was reading the words above *solid black*. not sure what you were refering to but as eye's

were the subject I added a bit to it.

Mixeduppup has a nice boy and i do like his eye's.

[WreckitWhippet]

You know, Steve I am getting this great sense of Déjà vu.

We have been over this ground together many times.

My new premise is that we have not kept pace with the Italians and, their dogs are currently, far and beyond, superior.

It is no good being parochial, we may have produced an Australian Maremma, but the conformation of Australian Show dogs should compliment the working trait and vice-versa.

Titled dogs should, and could, be a good barometer for breeding.

On the other hand, I see no reason why a similar protocol to that used with Kelpies could not be applied to other working breeds, particularly Maremmas.

Neither should we overlook the fact that the Italians also have another category for their breeding bitches of Reproductive Champion.

You've got to be kidding, anyone can title a dog in this country. All that proves is you've entered enough shows and gained enough points. There are Champions across every breed that shouldn't be, let alone be bred from

[Are You Serious Jo]

You know, Steve I am getting this great sense of Déjà vu.

We have been over this ground together many times.

My new premise is that we have not kept pace with the Italians and, their dogs are currently, far and beyond, superior.

It is no good being parochial, we may have produced an Australian Maremma, but the conformation of Australian Show dogs should compliment the working trait and vice-versa.

Titled dogs should, and could, be a good barometer for breeding.

On the other hand, I see no reason why a similar protocol to that used with Kelpies could not be applied to other working breeds, particularly Maremmas.

Neither should we overlook the fact that the Italians also have another category for their breeding bitches of Reproductive Champion.

You've got to be kidding, anyone can title a dog in this country. All that proves is you've entered enough shows and gained enough points. There are Champions across every breed that shouldn't be, let alone be bred from

Titled dogs should be a good barometer but they aren't. Haven't you ever heard of a petrol champion? Don't confuse getting a title with quality. Anyone can title a dog as long as it's not Quasimodo like. You need to think beyond champion and look critically of the dogs yourself. I still don't understand why you don't think a fault that is life threatening is acceptable, how can a dead dog work? Baffles me considering you even posted that you know how high the risk is of melanoma in Australia.

[zoiboy]

Neither should we overlook the fact that the Italians also have another category for their breeding bitches of Reproductive Champion.

The title of Reproductive Champion is also awarded to males in Italy :)

[Are You Serious Jo]

Does this title mean the dogs are of superior conformation or just good breeders?

[Steve]

You know, Steve I am getting this great sense of Déjà vu.

We have been over this ground together many times.

My new premise is that we have not kept pace with the Italians and, their dogs are currently, far and beyond, superior.

It is no good being parochial, we may have produced an Australian Maremma, but the conformation of Australian Show dogs should compliment the working trait and vice-versa.

Titled dogs should, and could, be a good barometer for breeding.

On the other hand, I see no reason why a similar protocol to that used with Kelpies could not be applied to other working breeds, particularly Maremmas.

Neither should we overlook the fact that the Italians also have another category for their breeding bitches of Reproductive Champion.

Yep and its taken us to about the same point it always does.Nowhere productive for the future of the health and working ability of the breed. The Italian dogs are in your opinion superior because you prefer the way they look. I get it - just don't agree.

[zoiboy]

Does this title mean the dogs are of superior conformation or just good breeders?

This title is given to dogs and bitches who have a number (yes there is a spesific number, i just don't recall what it is)

who have champion get that ALSO have good hip and elbow scores.

[Are You Serious Jo]

Only hips and elbows or do they have to be outstanding with regards to the standard? Sorry for the questions, I do speak Italian and it's very interesting.

[zoiboy]

Only hips and elbows or do they have to be outstanding with regards to the standard? Sorry for the questions, I do speak Italian and it's very interesting.

Yes at the moment (as far as i know) they only require hips and elbows. This is a BIG STEP forward for

the Italians as they have been ignoring hips elbows and stuff for a while :)