Maremmas In Show.

[mixeduppup]

not long at all then. 144 registered puppies, I know of at least 15 born unreg in the last year or so. I imagine there would be a lot

[Steve]

Its not only the temperament that needs to be part of any selection process. It is also what appears to some to be minor details in interpretations of the standard which are required to be focused on in order to maintain their ability to live in a paddock and be able to run and move effectively. You cannot simply say that dog is a good dog and has all that's required to ensure the breed isnt altered into the future because its the look that you prefer. Dogs which have lack of pigment for example cannot work all day in a paddock whether you bring them into the house yard in the evenings or not.Lack of pigment means sunburn and fly bites and it has a profound affect on the dog's ability to do what its required to do without compromising its welfare. No amount of correct temperament will counteract that. Dogs that are chunkier and heavier do look prettier in the ring but they are good for little more than mooching in a back yard but in a real life working situations, selecting for this wont help a dog do what it needs to do to run boundaries and chase of predators. It also means HD which the breed has never had to be worried about too much is now showing up.

Right now this breed is on the brink or having a division between working and show dogs and history with other working breeds should tell us if we don't look after both we will have working dog breeders and show breeders and their dogs will hardly resemble each other's working ability or how they look.

Some Show breeders can and will go into denial over this just as some show breeders in other working breeds do when they seriously ask those working dog owners to believe their show dogs are as capable of doing the work they need them to do.Because they dont work them they dont know the difference and assume that their dogs can do the same quality of job because they do still have similar all be it watered down base characteristics.

Basic science says if you dont select for it and test it you loose it .If they dont test them with work they can assume what they see is working ability and select for that with a greater emphasis on how they look over how they work - because they dont really have a clue how they work all day everyday with a species they bond with - they are guessing and over a few generations that will be - has to be - extinguished somewhat.

Maremmas should be able to be handled by strangers on leash off property if that is what they have been conditioned to and what they see as normal - .There are some bloody excellent breeders in this country that are working them all week with goats and cattle and sheep and taking them into the ring on the weekends - dogs which are taking off champions ships and are also some of the best working dogs anyone could ever hope for.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Steve

[Tralee]

not long at all then. 144 registered puppies, I know of at least 15 born unreg in the last year or so. I imagine there would be a lot

Yep. I see an alarming number being bred and raised around here too.

I'm not so concerned that some of the pups go to working situations, its the companion homes that make me cringe.

And then how many are desexed.

Hence the reason for this thread.

The preservation and further development of the Maremma's conformation and temperament is a serious concern.

[Are You Serious Jo]

I don't understand why lack of pigment isn't a disqualifying fault because it directly affects the purpose of the breed.

[mixeduppup]

not long at all then. 144 registered puppies, I know of at least 15 born unreg in the last year or so. I imagine there would be a lot

Yep. I see an alarming number being bred and raised around here too.

I'm not so concerned that some of the pups go to working situations, its the companion homes that make me cringe.

And then how many are desexed.

Hence the reason for this thread.

The preservation and further development of the Maremma's conformation and temperament is a serious concern.

I recently asked someone who own farmbred maremmas why they don't buy from a reg breeder and they are under the impression that show maremmas are not as tough as the farmbred ones and also people who are reg breeders of maremmas are few and far between and picky about who they sell to, so they may need 3 or 4 good maremmas yet be denied any. So there's a few reasons.

[espinay2]

I don't understand why lack of pigment isn't a disqualifying fault because it directly affects the purpose of the breed.

Pigment is taken VERY seriously in Pyreneans.

We don't have any disqualifying faults in the Standard here in Aust (as the current one is the UK one despite us trying to change it to country of origin), but it is pretty much beaten into us from the beginning how important pigment is, so breeders are all pretty wary of it and it is usually emphasised in judges training.

This below is included the standard for the Maremma, so I would think it is a matter of ensuring judges and breeders take heed of the standard? Who does the judges training for the breed?:

Disqualifying Faults:

Nose: Completely depigmented.

Eyes:

Moderate or bilateral depigmentation of the eyelids.

Edited April 17, 2013 by espinay2

[zoiboy]

I recently asked someone who own farmbred maremmas why they don't buy from a reg breeder and they are under the impression that show maremmas are not as tough as the farmbred ones and also people who are reg breeders of maremmas are few and far between and picky about who they sell to, so they may need 3 or 4 good maremmas yet be denied any. So there's a few reasons.

This may well be a reason given by farmers, but as often as not they do not have

any wish to pay for well bred and warrented pups. On the other side of that tho, I

had a lady phone me about pups (the pups were 4 weeks old at the time) and after I

told her how much they were she was sending her son the following day to collect one.

Boy was she annoyed when I muttered she just became the very last person I would ever

sell to.

I have a great deal invested in my dogs and i do not want pups I have bred ending up

in rescue or being disrespected in any other ways if i can aviod it.

Oh and the hips may well have been bad for many years Steve, it's just not noticed

as it's not tested for.....

[zoiboy]

Pigment is taken VERY seriously in Pyreneans.

We don't have any disqualifying faults in the Standard here in Aust (as the current one is the UK one despite us trying to change it to country of origin), but it is pretty much beaten into us from the beginning how important pigment is, so breeders are all pretty wary of it and it is usually emphasised in judges training.

This below is included the standard for the Maremma, so I would think it is a matter of ensuring judges and breeders take heed of the standard? Who does the judges training for the breed?:

Disqualifying Faults:

Nose: Completely depigmented.

Eyes:

Moderate or bilateral depigmentation of the eyelids.

Pigment is stressed at judge training. Pigment is VERY important

as is a harsh servicable double coat that sheds out with little to no help at all!!!

[WreckitWhippet]

Pigment is stressed at judge training. Pigment is VERY important

as is a harsh servicable double coat that sheds out with little to no help at all!!!

As a groomer, that's one of the things I didn't get to see.

[zoiboy]

Pigment is stressed at judge training. Pigment is VERY important

as is a harsh servicable double coat that sheds out with little to no help at all!!!

As a groomer, that's one of the things I didn't get to see.

It's a great shame, but lack of pigment and level bites are my hobby horses for the moment.

Good coats are easy to correct :)

[Are You Serious Jo]

Unfortunately some judges and breeders are letting lighter noses through. They don't have to be completely depigmented to be an issue, any colour other than black should be disqualified.

[BlackJaq]

What do breeders generally look for in a potential working home? :)

ETA: Oh, my bad, that is a little off the current discussion topic, please continue

Edited April 17, 2013 by BlackJaq

[espinay2]

Pigment is stressed at judge training. Pigment is VERY important

as is a harsh servicable double coat that sheds out with little to no help at all!!!

As a groomer, that's one of the things I didn't get to see.

We have some problems with unmanageable coats in Pyrs too in some lines (and my rescue girl had the WORST coat - horrible and cottony. But she also had a thyroid condition).

Sometimes this can be affected by desexing too unfortunately. As soon as you desex a dog even with a great coat, some of those properties can be lost. The infamous 'spey coat'.

[Tralee]

I don't understand why lack of pigment isn't a disqualifying fault because it directly affects the purpose of the breed.

Pigment is taken VERY seriously in Pyreneans.

We don't have any disqualifying faults in the Standard here in Aust (as the current one is the UK one despite us trying to change it to country of origin), but it is pretty much beaten into us from the beginning how important pigment is, so breeders are all pretty wary of it and it is usually emphasised in judges training.

This below is included the standard for the Maremma, so I would think it is a matter of ensuring judges and breeders take heed of the standard? Who does the judges training for the breed?:

Disqualifying Faults:

Nose: Completely depigmented.

Eyes:

Moderate or bilateral depigmentation of the eyelids.

There is a difference between depigmented and liver.

The Italians call liver, 'pele rosa' or pink skin.

While dogs that are shown in Italy characteristically have good pigment, it is not an issue in the working dog.

Maremma work in the snow and so you would expect they are a high risk group for skin cancer, however, the hole in the Ozone Layer does not extend into Italy.

Skin cancer is a problem peculiar to Australia.

[BlackJaq]

If the nose is liver the dog's coat will be liver, too, not white (is it EE?)

Edited April 17, 2013 by BlackJaq

[Are You Serious Jo]

Considering the high risk of melanoma in Australia, shouldn't all breeders only breed with dogs with full pigment and no liver.

[Tralee]

not long at all then. 144 registered puppies, I know of at least 15 born unreg in the last year or so. I imagine there would be a lot

Yep. I see an alarming number being bred and raised around here too.

I'm not so concerned that some of the pups go to working situations, its the companion homes that make me cringe.

And then how many are desexed.

Hence the reason for this thread.

The preservation and further development of the Maremma's conformation and temperament is a serious concern.

I recently asked someone who own farmbred maremmas why they don't buy from a reg breeder and they are under the impression that show maremmas are not as tough as the farmbred ones and also people who are reg breeders of maremmas are few and far between and picky about who they sell to, so they may need 3 or 4 good maremmas yet be denied any. So there's a few reasons.

Well I have not grounded a large number of litters but I do believe that I got the practice of homing puppies correct, right from the get go.

Firstly, I always have more homes than puppies.

My dogs have gone to working homes mostly but some went to show homes.

One dog went to a family that has had a Maremma before.

I vet puppy enquiries in great depth, but usually I decide on homes where the people are telling me what the dog will do and can do. lol.

[Tralee]

If the nose is liver the dog's coat will be liver, too, not white (is it EE?)

Not at all.

The Maremma is not a Pointer

[espinay2]

How on earth do you come to the conclusion that skin cancer is not an issue in Italy??? Even a quick look at the literature shows that melanoma is just as much an issue in Europe as it is here.

Or is it that they consider good black pigment important there so dogs with lighter noses are rare?

Edited April 17, 2013 by espinay2

[Are You Serious Jo]

Why doesn't a nose susceptible to cancer bother you tralee? It directly affects the dog's working ability and is a welfare issue.