Maremmas In Show.

[zoiboy]

I'm not a judge but that's really all I've seen. I am yet to come across ( but I'm sure they exist ) a Maremma that is presented as and is a true show dog. Owners can't expect to win or do well in the working dog group, if they are not presenting a total package and this means a dog that has excellent conformation, is well presented and handled and has the "look at me" factor. There are so many WDs of other breeds that can and so pull it all together.

i am not a judge and only a some times exibitor. i have chosen a breed that is not

a *showy* breed. Years ago I asked the lovely and late John Cowdrey why it was that

noone looks at the Maremma. He said that for him (and he only spoke for himself) it

all boiled down to the fact that they fade into the background. Ok now I have some thing

to work towards, if I wish, but at the time I was just very happy as that is what I want

from a good Maremma.

The working dog ring has some really nice and very showy breeds that are extreamly popular.

When we have a few dogs that can beat the big winners then we are getting some where.

Me ? I am very happy to produce good sound working dogs and just maybe the odd show dog.

[WreckitWhippet]

I'm not a judge but that's really all I've seen. I am yet to come across ( but I'm sure they exist ) a Maremma that is presented as and is a true show dog. Owners can't expect to win or do well in the working dog group, if they are not presenting a total package and this means a dog that has excellent conformation, is well presented and handled and has the "look at me" factor. There are so many WDs of other breeds that can and so pull it all together.

i am not a judge and only a some times exibitor. i have chosen a breed that is not

a *showy* breed. Years ago I asked the lovely and late John Cowdrey why it was that

noone looks at the Maremma. He said that for him (and he only spoke for himself) it

all boiled down to the fact that they fade into the background. Ok now I have some thing

to work towards, if I wish, but at the time I was just very happy as that is what I want

from a good Maremma.

The working dog ring has some really nice and very showy breeds that are extreamly popular.

When we have a few dogs that can beat the big winners then we are getting some where.

Me ? I am very happy to produce good sound working dogs and just maybe the odd show dog.

But are you really getting somewhere as a breed ? or will the breeders have managed to produce some "generic" show dogs ?

It comes back to is the Maremma really suited to the show ring and is showing in the best interests of the breed?

[Steve]

My point in this thread is that there are World Class Champion Maremmas.

On their day they are the best dogs in the World.

I am sure Australia has a share of potential World Champions across our many breeds.

But why should Italy have a monopoly on World Class Maremmas?

Our dogs work to world standards, they could be elevated to an indelible and insuperable Show Class as well.

How many World Class Champion Maremmas have been imported to or used to sire or whelp dogs now in this country?

In many breeds, the existence of top quality dogs in one country does not mean that dogs of the same quality are in another country and that goes for a range of breeds.

I made this point earlier.

We have not kept pace with the Italians and their breeding programs.

But we also face the disadvantage of not being in Europe and having exposure to so many Internationals.

The question about the stock brought to Australia over the past decades and the quality of our breeding also arises.

Colloquially, it is known that the entrepeneurs got hold of them and bred anything with anything, and it still goes on today.

Well if their dogs have to be tested for temperament because so many are lacking and that test has zippo nothing to do with how it could work Im not that convinced the Italians are doing all you seem to think they are doing. What's more those "entrepreneurs' built a gene pool which was extremely viable and had no known genetic issues. Ive got dogs here that have every single dog in their pedigree for 4 generations which are champions so suggesting to me that people were breeding anything to anything and that they still are? Rubbish.

C'mon Steve.

The temperament testing some Italians have undertaken is for good canine citizenship, it is neither universal or over-prescribed.

I could have had a $125 Maremma advertised in a Queensland newspaper, at the time I got my first dog. There must be hundreds of dogs that have been bred on farm without due care to the standard or pedigree. We have Maremma being bred here that are indisciminately joined and not pedigreed. Rescues have dogs that obviously display careless breeding.

Why you think every dog is a cousin to those you have, is beyond me.

So, not rubbish at all

Tralee every breed has dogs being bred by ratbags especially working breeds. Im talking about CC registered dogs and for you to say that what is here is rubbish across the board is still in my opinion rubbish.

[zoiboy]

[quote name='WreckitWhippe

But are you really getting somewhere as a breed ? or will the breeders have managed to produce some "generic" show dogs ?

It comes back to is the Maremma really suited to the show ring and is showing in the best interests of the breed?

I would hope that most of the Maremma breeders are looking at breeding sound even tempered

working dogs that are ass close to the standard as possible.

Now it is possible that now and then we will find a dog that is not only sound and typical

but also has a temperament that will show off some what.

I would also contend that the Maremma is not the only breed that is not universally suited to the show ring. This does not mean they should not be shown at all.

[Tralee]

Well finally.

It only took 23 pages to get some variety of comment.

I am glad to see some support and suggestions for the furthering development of this astounding dog.

It is also encouraging to see some commonality of thought among Maremma Breeders.

Today, Luca Luciani has taken his dogs to another International (EXPO INTERNAZIONALE DI MONTICHIARI).

Lets hope he gets one of them on the podium.

[zoiboy]

When have i ever said that every PMA is a show dog? I do not believe that

dog with SHY or AggRESSIVE temperaments should be held up as ACCEPTALE.

Overly Shy and overly Agggressive are to be avioded..

Showing has been going on a long time now and the rules of the game are

(for the most part) quite clear. The dog should bbe clean, well groomed

WELL TRAINED and stand STILL for the judge. How is this hard to understand?

[Clyde]

1365927535[/url]' post='6174694']

It comes back to is the Maremma really suited to the show ring and is showing in the best interests of the breed?

IMO no, it's not in the best interest of the breed. It is killing off their natural instinct.

[espinay2]

Is there hard evidence that it is killing off that instinct? I ask as in pyrs at least it had been the case that in any litter you will have some with different personalities that are suited to different roles. I have had one Pyr that showed less instinct for the job than all my others. She was a rescue of undetermined origin but thought to be from a backyard breeder of LGD. Is there evidence that maremma which are being shown and doing well in the ring, and their siblings from the same litters, have less instinct and ability to work ?

[Tralee]

Is there hard evidence that it is killing off that instinct? I ask as in pyrs at least it had been the case that in any litter you will have some with different personalities that are suited to different roles. I have had one Pyr that showed less instinct for the job than all my others. She was a rescue of undetermined origin but thought to be from a backyard breeder of LGD. Is there evidence that maremma which are being shown and doing well in the ring, and their siblings from the same litters, have less instinct and ability to work ?

I've only had Maremmas for 8 and a bit years, but my dogs, two of which are Titled Champions and another an upcoming Champion, have lost none of their inherent 'drive' to protect and guard. Our puppies, who we have homed and follow devotedly, are working successfully. In my experience, they pop out with an innate ability to guard and they will develop in the direction in which a person sets out to rear them. The accepted advice to new puppy owners being: "You need to start out in the manner in which you want to take the dog."

I am very happy with my dogs, they don't do innane, endless, circus tricks but I insist that they have good 'doggy' manners especially when around other dogs and other people.

However, on property, it is a different manner, they are allowed and encouraged to take charge of their yards.

I have respected their temperaments: Alert but not Aggressive.

My preference is for dogs that remain 'wary of strangers' and are able to display and demonstrate that temperament.

Regards

Edited April 15, 2013 by Tralee

[zoiboy]

Is there hard evidence that it is killing off that instinct? I ask as in pyrs at least it had been the case that in any litter you will have some with different personalities that are suited to different roles. I have had one Pyr that showed less instinct for the job than all my others. She was a rescue of undetermined origin but thought to be from a backyard breeder of LGD. Is there evidence that maremma which are being shown and doing well in the ring, and their siblings from the same litters, have less instinct and ability to work ?

If there is evidence then it is well hidden. The fact is that ALL the original WORKING

dogs came from the UK. Kyber was used extencivly at stud and it is difficult to find a

Maremma who does not have him behind it. KC (Knight Commander) was also used extencivily (perhaps more so than Kyber) and he was from a show kennel in Sweden. Lola went to the UK in whelp from Italy and then much later arrived in Australia with a couple of her pups. They are behind ALL PMA who were not brought in in the last few years. There have been very few due to the cost and difficulitys with regulations.

[espinay2]

Is there hard evidence that it is killing off that instinct? I ask as in pyrs at least it had been the case that in any litter you will have some with different personalities that are suited to different roles. I have had one Pyr that showed less instinct for the job than all my others. She was a rescue of undetermined origin but thought to be from a backyard breeder of LGD. Is there evidence that maremma which are being shown and doing well in the ring, and their siblings from the same litters, have less instinct and ability to work ?

If there is evidence then it is well hidden. The fact is that ALL the original WORKING

dogs came from the UK. Kyber was used extencivly at stud and it is difficult to find a

Maremma who does not have him behind it. KC (Knight Commander) was also used extencivily (perhaps more so than Kyber) and he was from a show kennel in Sweden. Lola went to the UK in whelp from Italy and then much later arrived in Australia with a couple of her pups. They are behind ALL PMA who were not brought in in the last few years. There have been very few due to the cost and difficulitys with regulations.

Sound similar situation to pyrs as in the earlier years most were from the uk. LGD can not be used in a working role in the UK due to their ancient legislation regarding right of passage etc which means in a lot of places people have a legal right to walk through the fields unimpeded (a rule that is actively exercised by many groups and individuals)

Edited April 16, 2013 by espinay2

[Tralee]

Is there hard evidence that it is killing off that instinct? I ask as in pyrs at least it had been the case that in any litter you will have some with different personalities that are suited to different roles. I have had one Pyr that showed less instinct for the job than all my others. She was a rescue of undetermined origin but thought to be from a backyard breeder of LGD. Is there evidence that maremma which are being shown and doing well in the ring, and their siblings from the same litters, have less instinct and ability to work ?

If there is evidence then it is well hidden. The fact is that ALL the original WORKING

dogs came from the UK. Kyber was used extencivly at stud and it is difficult to find a

Maremma who does not have him behind it. KC (Knight Commander) was also used extencivily (perhaps more so than Kyber) and he was from a show kennel in Sweden. Lola went to the UK in whelp from Italy and then much later arrived in Australia with a couple of her pups. They are behind ALL PMA who were not brought in in the last few years. There have been very few due to the cost and difficulitys with regulations.

Sound similar situation to pyrs as in the earlier years most were from the uk. LGD can not be used in a working role in the UK due to their ancient legislation regarding right of passage etc which means in a lot of places people have a legal right to walk through the fields unimpeded (a rule that is actively exercised by many groups and individuals)

That's interesting espinay2.

That means their trespass laws would be impacting on Maremmas as well.

I have already stated that the Maremma in the UK has been developing a more docile temperament, and was challenged to provide evidence.

So thanks for that, it is duly noted.

[espinay2]

Is there hard evidence that it is killing off that instinct? I ask as in pyrs at least it had been the case that in any litter you will have some with different personalities that are suited to different roles. I have had one Pyr that showed less instinct for the job than all my others. She was a rescue of undetermined origin but thought to be from a backyard breeder of LGD. Is there evidence that maremma which are being shown and doing well in the ring, and their siblings from the same litters, have less instinct and ability to work ?

If there is evidence then it is well hidden. The fact is that ALL the original WORKING

dogs came from the UK. Kyber was used extencivly at stud and it is difficult to find a

Maremma who does not have him behind it. KC (Knight Commander) was also used extencivily (perhaps more so than Kyber) and he was from a show kennel in Sweden. Lola went to the UK in whelp from Italy and then much later arrived in Australia with a couple of her pups. They are behind ALL PMA who were not brought in in the last few years. There have been very few due to the cost and difficulitys with regulations.

Sound similar situation to pyrs as in the earlier years most were from the uk. LGD can not be used in a working role in the UK due to their ancient legislation regarding right of passage etc which means in a lot of places people have a legal right to walk through the fields unimpeded (a rule that is actively exercised by many groups and individuals)

That's interesting espinay2.

That means their trespass laws would be impacting on Maremmas as well.

I have already stated that the Maremma in the UK has been developing a more docile temperament, and was challenged to provide evidence.

So thanks for that, it is duly noted.

That isn't evidence of change. As noted, all the working Maremma here in Australia are descended from UK dogs who have lived under those rules since their introduction to that country. If it were a problem too, anyone such as yourself who did not live on a working property would have the same issue by virtue that your dogs do not work. A breed does not magically lose the ability unless effort is made to breed away from it over many generations. Being able to 'test' working ability is good, but there are many many breeders who do not have stock that recognize and work hard to maintain those traits in their dogs. I would even hazard a guess that not all of the top Italian breeders have farms that their dogs work on? So again, what hard evidence is there that showing is killing the instinct of the maremma?

Edited April 16, 2013 by espinay2

[Tralee]

Is there hard evidence that it is killing off that instinct? I ask as in pyrs at least it had been the case that in any litter you will have some with different personalities that are suited to different roles. I have had one Pyr that showed less instinct for the job than all my others. She was a rescue of undetermined origin but thought to be from a backyard breeder of LGD. Is there evidence that maremma which are being shown and doing well in the ring, and their siblings from the same litters, have less instinct and ability to work ?

If there is evidence then it is well hidden. The fact is that ALL the original WORKING

dogs came from the UK. Kyber was used extencivly at stud and it is difficult to find a

Maremma who does not have him behind it. KC (Knight Commander) was also used extencivily (perhaps more so than Kyber) and he was from a show kennel in Sweden. Lola went to the UK in whelp from Italy and then much later arrived in Australia with a couple of her pups. They are behind ALL PMA who were not brought in in the last few years. There have been very few due to the cost and difficulitys with regulations.

Sound similar situation to pyrs as in the earlier years most were from the uk. LGD can not be used in a working role in the UK due to their ancient legislation regarding right of passage etc which means in a lot of places people have a legal right to walk through the fields unimpeded (a rule that is actively exercised by many groups and individuals)

That's interesting espinay2.

That means their trespass laws would be impacting on Maremmas as well.

I have already stated that the Maremma in the UK has been developing a more docile temperament, and was challenged to provide evidence.

So thanks for that, it is duly noted.

That isn't evidence of change. As noted, all the working Maremma here in Australia are descended from UK dogs who have lived under those rules since their introduction to that country. If it were a problem too, anyone such as yourself who did not live on a working property would have the same issue by virtue that your dogs do not work. A breed does not magically lose the ability unless effort is made to breed away from it over many generations. Being able to 'test' working ability is good, but there are many many breeders who do not have stock that recognize and work hard to maintain those traits in their dogs. I would even hazard a guess that not all of the top Italian breeders have farms that their dogs work on? So again, what hard evidence is there that showing is killing the instinct of the maremma?

Just briefly, I doubt showing per se is impacting on an eradication of working temperament.

Showing and temperament is a poor correlation.

But you are right, there is a division in Italy between the working dog lines/breeders and the Show/breeders.

I know a particular breeder who specifically breeds and provides dogs to other breeders.

He is the show breeders breeder if you like.

I am also aware that other breeders favour a working dog.

But there are many other arguments centering around the conformation and temperament of the Maremma in Italy.

One, for example, is the genuine or authentic shape of their head, should they be lupoid or mastoid.

But, personally, I am not in fear of the Maremma losing its working temperament.

We can always return to the ultimate source and extract dogs, in situ, from their country of origin.

A country, by the way, that holds the breed in high esteem and with great regard.

P

[espinay2]

In Pyreneans the type is referred to as 'Lupomolossoid'. Basically it is not 'mastiff-like', but is a lighter more agile and elegant dog, while still retaining strength and bearing. Neither lupoid nor mastoid, but in between.

[mixeduppup]

How long has the Maremma actually been in Aus?

[zoiboy]

How long has the Maremma actually been in Aus?

According to the data I have Charles and Sandra Curwen Hollinsdale Kennels

registered the first in 1984.

This site has a great deal of info if your curious.

http://www.maremmano.com/breeding_numbers/australian_breeding_statistics_to_2000.html

n the last 12 months there have been 144 pups registered with RNSWCC or DogsNSW.

[Clyde]

So again, what hard evidence is there that showing is killing the instinct of the maremma?

It was me that said something about this. Although I did say "IMO" (in my opinion) and I didn't say I had 'hard evidence'.

It's an interesting discussion and I will be back to join in. I have been away though and just got in last night so I'm not really functioning with a clear head yet.

I think the stress of leaving the Maremmas leaves me drained before my holiday even starts :laugh: Pleased to report they were all very well behaved for the house sitters (a DOL member)!

[espinay2]

Interesting stats! Interesting also that while Pyrs have ben here longer, the number produced each year has remained fairly static with an average of 50 puppies per year Australia-wide (some years less, some more but most around this number).

[zoiboy]

i should actually amend that statement as while the number (144) is correct

it is a national figure.

Espinay, I wish that the Maremma was in a similar boat to the Pry's. The numbers

of unregistered breeders producing large numbers of Maremma is frightening.